Billy Graham

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Do you recognize the absurd ad hominem you made? Do you recognize that you are in effect saying "if you claim to know truth you must have omniscient knowledge of all truths"? Do you realize that is a straw man argument? Do you realize that the logical conclusion of your position is that YOU DONT EVEN KNOW YOUR OWN NANE, OR THAT YOU EVEN EXIST?

Because you are in effect saying "you either have omniscience, or nothing certain at all." Which is a false dichotomy.

You've committed the following fallacies in just 3 sentences: attacking our character, setting up a false dilemma, setting up a straw man argument, a weak bandwagon fallacy, and argument by ridicule. 5 fallacies in three sentences!

You are right about one thing, though: YOU DONT KNOW. You don't know what you are talking about, nor do you know what the other side is even getting at. You don't have a clear conception of what you're arguing against.

I think you just like to be a contrarian around here.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Do you recognize the absurd ad hominem you made? Do you recognize that you are in effect saying "if you claim to know truth you must have omniscient knowledge of all truths"? Do you realize that is a straw man argument? Do you realize that the logical conclusion of your position is that YOU DONT EVEN KNOW YOUR OWN NANE, OR THAT YOU EVEN EXIST?

Because you are in effect saying "you either have omniscience, or nothing certain at all." Which is a false dichotomy.

You've committed the following fallacies in just 3 sentences: attacking our character, setting up a false dilemma, setting up a straw man argument, a weak bandwagon fallacy, and argument by ridicule. 5 fallacies in three sentences!

You are right about one thing, though: YOU DONT KNOW. You don't know what you are talking about, nor do you know what the other side is even getting at. You don't have a clear conception of what you're arguing against.

I think you just like to be a contrarian around here.

Okay. My position is actually the classical position of the Apostolic movement, including most of our founders. It's in the works of Bernard, was taught by Harvey and Hiss Shearer (Huss was my first pastor), and it leaves all judgment in the hands of a righteous God, neither affirming or denying salvation to nominal Christians outside our movement.

These were good men, men of revelations, dreams, and visions. In fact, much of what you appreciate in Pentecost was provided by their hard work, prayers, and dedication. You stand on the shoulders of giants.

Here's my question... (this can be answered by EB too)

Is their any chance you COULD be wrong?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Okay. My position is actually the classical position of the Apostolic movement, including most of our founders. It's in the works of Bernard, was taught by Harvey and Hiss Shearer (Huss was my first pastor), and it leaves all judgment in the hands of a righteous God, neither affirming or denying salvation to nominal Christians outside our movement.

These were good men, men of revelations, dreams, and visions. In fact, much of what you appreciate in Pentecost was provided by their hard work, prayers, and dedication. You stand on the shoulders of giants.

Here's my question... (this can be answered by EB too)

Is their any chance you COULD be wrong?

Preacher worship? Good men, wonderful, excellent and admirable. Yet we must make sure the good men are teaching it by the Book. Not their books.

Wrong? About soteriology?

No.

Again this isn’t higher math, or rocket science.

If you are in sin, and leading a conflicted life in the dark corners of your mind, repent. Be free, and allow Jesus to create in you a new mind.

No one needs to be in bondage where they have to create doctrines to give false hope and false comfort. The Bible is plain, we are told there is only One Way.

Best we find it, and be steadfast to remain on it.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Okay. My position is actually the classical position of the Apostolic movement, including most of our founders. It's in the works of Bernard, was taught by Harvey and Hiss Shearer (Huss was my first pastor), and it leaves all judgment in the hands of a righteous God, neither affirming or denying salvation to nominal Christians outside our movement.

These were good men, men of revelations, dreams, and visions. In fact, much of what you appreciate in Pentecost was provided by their hard work, prayers, and dedication. You stand on the shoulders of giants.

Here's my question... (this can be answered by EB too)

Is their any chance you COULD be wrong?

Nonsense. Those men (that is, the "Pioneers of 20th century Pentecost") all held to Sola Scriptura which you "categorically reject". They would have exposed you as a heretical neo-papist for that one thing alone. As for your pastor, don't know him and don't know what he taught. But either he was a mess of a teacher, or you were a mess of a student.

Our doctrine is not based on Bernard, or Ewart, or Goss. It's based on BIBLE. See, we're not impressed by what some famous person said, did, or thought. They get judged by Scripture just like Billy Graham, you, and I get judged, by the same Scripture. In Berea, even Paul had to be judged by SCRIPTURE.

We can debate what THE BIBLE teaches about salvation, and what it says about who makes it and who don't. But if the Bible isn't the Final Authority on the subject, then anything goes and we might as well cast runes and stare at goat intestines to get an answer.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Nonsense. Those men (that is, the "Pioneers of 20th century Pentecost") all held to Sola Scriptura which you "categorically reject". They would have exposed you as a heretical neo-papist for that one thing alone. As for your pastor, don't know him and don't know what he taught. But either he was a mess of a teacher, or you were a mess of a student.

Our doctrine is not based on Bernard, or Ewart, or Goss. It's based on BIBLE. See, we're not impressed by what some famous person said, did, or thought. They get judged by Scripture just like Billy Graham, you, and I get judged, by the same Scripture. In Berea, even Paul had to be judged by SCRIPTURE.

We can debate what THE BIBLE teaches about salvation, and what it says about who makes it and who don't. But if the Bible isn't the Final Authority on the subject, then anything goes and we might as well cast runes and stare at goat intestines to get an answer.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Okay. My position is actually the classical position of the Apostolic movement, including most of our founders. It's in the works of Bernard, was taught by Harvey and Hiss Shearer (Huss was my first pastor), and it leaves all judgment in the hands of a righteous God, neither affirming or denying salvation to nominal Christians outside our movement.

These were good men, men of revelations, dreams, and visions. In fact, much of what you appreciate in Pentecost was provided by their hard work, prayers, and dedication. You stand on the shoulders of giants.

Here's my question... (this can be answered by EB too)

Is their any chance you COULD be wrong?

Taught by most of our founders?
My great-grandfather was one of the first to accept the message in the midwest and neither he, nor my grandfather believed (or preached) that there was any other way to be saved.
So, I would disagree with your perspective.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Taught by most of our founders?
My great-grandfather was one of the first to accept the message in the midwest and neither he, nor my grandfather believed (or preached) that there was any other way to be saved.
So, I would disagree with your perspective.

You're free too. However, I have many different books written by these men and they often talk about Christians who do not have the light we have. They don't affirm the salvation of these Christians, nor do they deny their salvation. They leave it in the hands of God to decide.

Please understand, I'm not saying that anyone has any assurance or certainty of salvation outside of Acts 2:38. I'm not saying that there is an "exit ramp" that one can take and be sure of salvation outside of Acts 2:38. What I'm saying is that faithful men and women who have believed on Christ, I believe, should be commended to Him so that He might determine what is best to do with their eternal soul.

Here's another point... if many of the founders of 20th Century Pentecost could be mistaken on various points... so can we. We are often far too arrogant, assuming that our interpretation is infallible. That is a grave mistake to make. Because while Scripture is infallible, our interpretations of it are not. We are but men. I have no problem with saying that based on my understanding of Acts 2:38 salvation, Christians who never experienced it are lost. What I have issue with is an arrogance that doesn't own up to what it believes about the Scripture. Instead, they blame it all on God, "Well, the Bible says...." No. I don't believe they should be let off so easily. They should be telling the truth by saying, "What I understand regarding the Bible..."

We've become frozen in time, worshipping our interpretations, and patting ourselves on the back. We've condemned all comers instead of seeing ourselves as the Revival that has been longed for since the Dark Ages. We are the end result of the Reformation. If we aren't, why do we cling to the Solas of the Reformers? Why do we even turn to commentaries of men we believe were in darkness? Why do we even use the Bible that has been translated by them??? We stand on the shoulders of giants who longed for the fullness of truth that we have... and all we do is spit in their eyes and condemn them like sottish children.

At least the JWs, who disavow every Christian other than their movement, had the guts to produce their own translation of Scripture, correcting what they believed to be errors contrary to what they firmly believe is truth. The very Bible we use is a product of Trinitarian scribes who often risked their lives to protect it and translated it. Some would say, "Who cares?!" Well, Jesus tells us that no man offering a cup of water in His name would be denied his reward. Imagine the grace that could be employed on behalf of a soul who protects, translates, and defends the very Word of God... though their understanding isn't perfect.

There is also the fact that the measure by which we judge is the measure we must meet. If we demand absolute doctrinal purity, allowing for no misunderstanding, or room for growth, we ensure that God will judge us the same way. I fear that those who are so quick to demand absolute doctrinal purity will one day find that they weren't as enlightened on all fronts as they assumed they were. And they will be judged by the very measure of absolute doctrinal purity.

Many will criticize me. But I'm still a work in progress. When I left Futurism to embrace Preterism I realized... the more I learn, the LESS I seem to know. I'd rather stand before God and be judged for being more merciful than what was called for, than be judged for not being merciful enough.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Taught by most of our founders?
My great-grandfather was one of the first to accept the message in the midwest and neither he, nor my grandfather believed (or preached) that there was any other way to be saved.
So, I would disagree with your perspective.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I think you just like to be a contrarian around here.

Contrarian?

No, absolutely not!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Contrarian?

No, absolutely not!

Why? Because your own self perception is your reality.
God gave us instruction through prophets, scribes, and apostles.
The information wasn’t cryptic to the early church. They easily understood what they needed to do. Their only opposition was Biblical Judaism and Kabbalist Gnosticism. Yet, a remnant made it through, to each generation the baton is handed of to the next group of messengers. They were told to believe not every spirit but test those spirits like Jesus tested Satan and Satan’s offspring with the word. At the judgement we will be judged by the Word. Not by your’s or my interpretations. Not by ifs or maybes, but by book chapter and verse. If we don’t have the truth, then buddy boy we best get to finding it. Because our eternity is on the line. This isn’t some sort of celestial roulette where we walk through life not knowing if we are saved or not. But have to wait until we get the surprise at the pearly gates. Paul couldn’t be able to tell us to make our calling an election sure if salvation was some sort of mystery. If truth was so cryptic that we were just guessing at it. No, the Lord Jesus, His Apostles were able to relay the Truth to us clearly. Our feelings of right and wrong or personal experiences aren’t the litmus test for truth, but only the scripture. If you lead an unrepentant life, or a life where you are locked in constant struggle with sin, then self change through repentance is needed. Not hoping that God will flip a coin at the final judgement.

Yes, we are in God’s hands now, and we stand in the middle of an open book. It is what is written in that book that will judge us or free us. We just need to enter in at the strait gate. To encourage others that they too can navigate the narrow path with a Pilgrim’s Progress finding the strait gate to enter through to see the face of Jesus Christ.