Five-fold ministry = Moses + 4 carriers of Ark??

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

They ordained elders in every church. They didn't didn't ordain a "the pastor" of the church. They church was governed by elders not one person.

Eph. 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers.

I don't see elder or elders in the scripture.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by seguidordejesus

I heard a minister in the past tell that he believed that the five fold ministry was symbolized in the old testament by Moses (the pastor) and the four priests who carried the ark (who are the other 4 ministries). He said that the other four are subject to the pastor. I don't really find this proved or disproved in Scripture, but it sounds a little far fetched to me. I do believe that the pastor has a responsibility to keep things orderly in the church, so don't get me wrong...I'm just not sure that it's saying what he said it did. Have you heard this? Comments?

I agree with you. I would say it is a stretch to use Moses and the bearers of the ark as indication of a five-fold ministry being foreshawowed. It sounds cool, but is not solidly viable.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Rev

The minister was wrong! It was those that carried the ark plus the one sitting on the throne of the ark - between the wings of the cherubim.

I would say that is also a bit of a stretch to validate a five-fold ministry. The one on the ark was GOD! And God is not part of the five-fold ministry as the ministry is tagged when reading Eph 4.

[Rev]

Originally Posted by cneasttx

Eph. 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers.

I don't see elder or elders in the scripture.

And when they had appointed for them elders in every church (ceirotonhsantev de autoiv kat ekklhsian presbuterouv). They needed also some form of organization, though already churches. Note distributive use of kata with ekklhsian (#2:46; 5:42; Tit 1:5). ceirotonew (from ceirotonov, extending the hand, ceir, hand, and teinw, to stretch) is an old verb that originally meant to vote by show of the hands, finally to appoint with the approval of an assembly that chooses as in #2Co 8:19, and then to appoint without regard to choice as in Josephus (Ant. XIII. 2, 2) of the appointment of Jonathan as high priest by Alexander. So in #Ac 10:41 the compound proceiratonew is used of witnesses appointed by God. But the seven (deacons) were first selected by the Jerusalem church and then appointed (katasthsomen) by the apostles. That is probably the plan contemplated by Paul in his directions to Titus (#Tit 1:5) about the choice of elders. It is most likely that this plan was the one pursued by Paul and Barnabas with these churches. They selected the elders in each instance and Paul and Barnabas "ordained" them as we say, though the word ceirotonew does not mean that. "Elders" were mentioned first in #11:30. Later Paul will give the requirements expected in these "elders" or "bishops" (#Php 1:1) as in #1Ti 3:1-7; Tit 1:5-9. It is fairly certain that these elders were chosen to correspond in a general way with the elders in the Jewish synagogue after which the local church was largely copied as to organization and worship. Paul, like Jesus, constantly worshipped and spoke in the synagogues. Already it is plain, as at Antioch in Syria (#11:26), that the Christians can no longer count on the use of the Jewish synagogue. They must have an organization of their own. The use of the plural here implies what was true at Philippi (#Php 1:1) and Ephesus (#Ac 20:17,28) that each church (one in each city) "had its college of elders" (Hackett) as in Jerusalem (#21:18). Elder (presbuterov) was the Jewish name and bishop (episkopov) the Greek name for the same office. "Those who are called elders in speaking of Jewish communities are called bishops in speaking of Gentile communities" (Hackett). Hovey rightly holds against Hackett that teaching was a normal function of these elders, pastors or bishops as they were variously called (#1Ti 3:2; Tit 1:9; 1Co 12:28,30; Eph 4:11).

Over look the Greek words they won't copy here correctly.

[Rev]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I would say that is also a bit of a stretch to validate a five-fold ministry. The one on the ark was GOD! And God is not part of the five-fold ministry as the ministry is tagged when reading Eph 4.

Numbers are mostly symbolic especially in the book of Revelation where this type is fulfilled. The four beast carrying the throne of God in which Christ sits.

You can see the Ark with the Churubims carrying it in the cloud in (Eze 1:1-26) and then in (Rev 4:1-6)

I never said that God was a part of the five fold ministry.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Rev

Numbers are mostly symbolic especially in the book of Revelation where this type is fulfilled. The four beast carrying the throne of God in which Christ sits.

You can see the Ark with the Churubims carrying it in the cloud in (Eze 1:1-26) and then in (Rev 4:1-6)

I agree there is a connection. But saying the four carrying the ark speaks something about the five-fold ministry is really only assumption at best. A good thought? Sure! But not conclusive.

Saying a number is symbolic, though, is saying there is no actuality of four elements involved in the number, but rather a message.

Being used in symbolism, some have said 4 represents the WORLD. 4 Gospels to the world. 4 Corners of the earth. Etc.

[Rev]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I agree there is a connection. But saying the four carrying the ark speaks something about the five-fold ministry is really only assumption at best. A good thought? Sure! But not conclusive.

Saying a number is symbolic, though, is saying there is no actuality of four elements involved in the number, but rather a message.

Being used in symbolism, some have said 4 represents the WORLD. 4 Gospels to the world. 4 Corners of the earth. Etc.

Since God put the cherubim at the gate of Eden with the flamming sword to keep the way to the tree of life which is a type of Christ, and since the flaming sword is a type of the word of God that would make the cherubim a type of the ministry. And since it is the cherubim that are carrying the ark I think the symbol is absolutely clear. I could go much further with this but I think that should do.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Rev

Since God put the cherubim at the gate of Eden with the flamming sword to keep the way to the tree of life which is a type of Christ, and since the flaming sword is a type of the word of God that would make the cherubim a type of the ministry. And since it is the cherubim that are carrying the ark I think the symbol is absolutely clear. I could go much further with this but I think that should do.

I agree with your observations, and have held them, myself. But I am just saying that the four carrying the ark cannot conclusively be said to depict 5-fold ministry, is all.

[Rev]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I agree with your observations, and have held them, myself. But I am just saying that the four carrying the ark cannot conclusively be said to depict 5-fold ministry, is all.

Since you must go through the cherubim with the flamming sword at the gate of Eden, and through the cherubim on the veil of the tabernacle of Moses, and through the cherubim on the door of Solomon's temple to enter into the presence of God, and since the cherubim are a type of the ministry, and since the ministry is five-fold how could that not be conclusive?

[seguidordejesus]

Originally Posted by Rev

Since you must go through the cherubim with the flamming sword at the gate of Eden, and through the cherubim on the veil of the tabernacle of Moses, and through the cherubim on the door of Solomon's temple to enter into the presence of God, and since the cherubim are a type of the ministry, and since the ministry is five-fold how could that not be conclusive?

I think we're talking about two different things...

1 - Are Moses and the four ark bearers symbolic of the five fold ministry?

2 - Something about the mercy seat and cherubims...? Maybe a thread on that would be good, to get some more input from others who aren't particularly interested in the ark.