The UPCI OFFERING BENEFITS TO ITS MEMBERS

[SoCaliUPC]

Originally Posted by TrmptPraise

Oh no, now they're union! J/K

pelathais & SoCaliUPC, correct me if I am wrong, don't I remember "back in the day" some UPC certified financial planners used to go around and counsel on these issues? My memory fails me, but I do seem to remember either that.

Counsel who is one question.

I do not know of this....does not mean it did not happen.

[SoCaliUPC]

Originally Posted by cneasttx

There are some pastors out there that get little or no tithes.

Then I am sure, those pastors are also working a secular job as well.

[CC1]

Dora,

The things you listed are not free. Someone has to pay. In recent years the UPC national organization / denominiation has had financial difficulties, not "extra" money.

I do believe that the org. should offer ministers a group 401k or whatever the apropriate retirement fund would be for ministers to contribute to but the funds going into it would have to come from the minister himself or the church he pastors. The national org. does not have money to match or contribute.

The same holds true for life insurance and health insurance. The org. can offer a group plan but the full cost of the plan has to be borne by the licensed minister who wants to participate or his church. (I do believe there is some sort of small life insurance policy included with the dues for General license and Ordained ministers if I remember correctly).

I don't fault the org. for the situations you listed. Those churches and those disricts in the case of District officials should have had the foresight and sense to have made a provision for those men's retirement. I realize that for many years Pentecost was a sect primarily on the "wrong side of the railroad tracks" with not much money but it is hard to believe how so many elder ministers have gotten to retirment age with nothing set aside.

In the case of small churches and itinerent preachers it is understandable but any established church of any size should have retirement plans / funds in place for the Pastor and full time staff.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Originally Posted by SoCaliUPC

Counsel who is one question.

I do not know of this....does not mean it did not happen.

It did happen for a short time SoCali. I never heard much of it on a national scale. I think if I remember the username on NFCF was Preach. I don't think this good brother has visited us here on AFF.

My wife's grandfather realized after a crippling heart attack that his wife was going to be in serious trouble if he passed. He implored his son to NOT invest in Parsonages, and to set something away incase his son's wife was suddenly a widow. Not too many of these topics are taught in Minister Training classes.

Let's see- $7 Million pledged for Mission- $2.58 Million comes in. Seems that funding a 401K would then be a pipedream too, if they cannot even send in what they pledged. I would not want to retire on shifting sands like that.

[Wink]

There are too many variables for a blanket retirement/health plan for ministers in the Organization.

First of all some pastors are working secular jobs to to keep the church afloat till they grow. Financially out of the question for them to be involved.

Second Scenario: Pastor is a very astute investor and has created a diversified portfolio of investments that would make a startup alternative offered from the UP pale in comparison.

Bottom Line: as your church grows and you invest in people the money will come in and then you create a working game plan for your future and your spouse as well.

If your church dont grow then find a way to create passive income for later on and maybe consider a job that has benefits.

Sure it is sad to see the elders that have given to the Lord so many years and now have nothing.
I was preached to as a kid that i would never even marry because the rapture would come first.

Thats been 30 years ago so maybe that has been a factor in some of the fine men of God.

On the other hand i know of pastors that are not household names and have modest size churches 60-100 that have been incredibly wise and have created streams of income that comes from outside the church.

I make my living from churches but am not on a salary or staff. I have no idea what i will make from week to week. I have been living this way since 1992.

10 years ago i began to take steps to create a long term plan to make my twilight years more comfortable when i realized that the bottom line is no one will take care of me when i get old!!

You Have To Take Care Of Yourself!!!!!!!!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by TrmptPraise

Oh no, now they're union! J/K

pelathais & SoCaliUPC, correct me if I am wrong, don't I remember "back in the day" some UPC certified financial planners used to go around and counsel on these issues? My memory fails me, but I do seem to remember either that.

Or maybe it was "Bro. "So&So" is in the district preaching and he happens to be a CFP. He is offering a workshop on insert title here"

There were a variety of "outreaches" and educational attempts made over the years. I distinctly remember at GC in Indianapolis (1991?) a couple of different speakers during the closed ministers sessions were given a lot of time to address tax issues, estate planning and the like.

Some guys actually stood up to the mike and asked what they should do to become "legit" after years of working off the books. They were concerned about facing some real problems because they handled the money "the way they had been taught." That often seems to have involved little if any reporting of income. This discussion is why I remember the very place I was sitting when I heard it. Several brothers passed out cards and offered services. And to think, Eric Dickerson used to run up and down that same floor where I was sitting.

But yes, there was also estate planning and legal advice given. There's always at least some sort of "tid bit" given at any such meeting.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind

...
Let's see- $7 Million pledged for Mission- $2.58 Million comes in. Seems that funding a 401K would then be a pipedream too, if they cannot even send in what they pledged. I would not want to retire on shifting sands like that.

Are you still blathering about that offering? It may very well be that some of the pledges wound up in various 401k accounts instead of being sent to HQ and the missions field.

[CC1]

By the way to Dora's point about elderly ministers being destitute I would like to add to my previous post that we have sadly learned that private arrangements for a retirement stipend paid for by the church and subsequent pastors is subject to being violated, terminated or otherwise not honored.

A church and pastor should have a set amount each month that is contributed to a 401k, IRA, annuity, or whatever else formal retirement product would insure that the money is safe, secure, and dedicated to that task. That way the pastors retirement is not at the whim of subesequent pastors or the future financial health of the church. There have been cases where churches made obligations with honest intent but later the church split or otherwise had financial difficulty and could not honor those promises. ONe more reason a formal investment in retirement funds as you pastor is a must! Steve Epely has had some good comments on this subject in the past and perhaps he will see this thread and jump in.

[Dora]

This is great! The responses have been very informative food for thought.

So the organization is not responsible for the financial well-being of its ministers. Wouldn't it be wise to provide some sort of guidelines for churches to follow concerning financial support of the pastor? Not that the org should be enforcers of the plan, just provide them as a courtesy. This would be especially helpful for pastors of smaller churches or younger ministers who step into an elder's shoes.

[StillStanding]

Maybe many pastors plan on pastoring until they die. They don't take into consideration that they may encounter health problems that may force them to retire. This happened with my father.

My father took advantage of pastors not being required to pay social security as part of their annual income taxes. He looked at it as saving the church money.

We he had his stroke, he suddenly was unable to preach or pastor, and was left without any social security income. Luckily, the church made provisions for him to retire with a monthly payment of $1000.

This forced my mother to find work at age 62 to suppliment their income.

When my father died, mom was left with no social security. It appeared like she would have to work until she died to support herself.

Thankfully, the church has continued to pay the $1000 per month retirement to her so far. There were times when that was in jeopordy, but things have seemed to be consistant.

My brothers and I convinced her to retire at age 70. She had built up a social security monthly income of $275 since she started working. As long as the church continues to pay the $1000 per month, she can survive.

Very wisely, my mom put away part of her income when she was working to put into retirement funds through Walmart. She even bought some Walmart stock. She spends that money in emergency cases such as her recent surgery.