Worship.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by nahkoe

*Disclaimer* This really is an innocent question...you've always been pretty good at answering my questions, but just making sure you understand I'm not trying to be antagonistic... Oh, and making sure you understand I'm not actually asking a question about what you're asking a question about, I'm asking a question about your question...no relation to the topic at hand.

Does it matter if it's New Testament or Old Testament precedent, and why would it? God is God through both, correct? He doesn't change, right?

That's kewl - I think I understand that.

In some things it does not matter as much, but I think it does matter more in this case. I would not approach it as a question of whether God changes or not, rather it's a matter of the veiled becoming revealed.

Much of the focus in the Old Testament was the outward formality and display of acceptable worship to God, while still yet acknowledging God sees the intent of the heart.

In the New Testament this is reversed. The formal gathering place and the mechanics of "worship" is minimized, and we are told we are the temple - and have the Holy Spirit in common earthen vessles. The focus is no longer so much on "ushering in" the presence of God.

Jesus spoke to this time when worship would be something of the heart and without pretension...

19"Sir," the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. 20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."

21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

"spirit" here means "inner man" or from the heart, not spiritED as many preach. God is a spiritual being and we must offer spiritual worship. Jesus was revealing a new thing, and certainly spirited worship was not new at that time. Also in this context "truth" is simply "without pretension" - God sees and knows the inner man.

So the focus of New Testament worship is the heart it'self, the inner man. Whether there is organized or formal demonstration is of little consequence.

Of course this does not mean heartfelt worship may not produce emotional results, it can and does - but I would say emotional orchestration simply does not and cannot produce or manufacture worship in spirit and in truth.

[shag]

I'd sure feel better about the "holy rollin", the answer to the push from the pulpit to "Go ahead and act apostolic!"(meaning jump up and down, holler, run the isles etc.) if I found N.T. scripture supporting it in a church service/gathering "setting"(excluding "be not drunk...., but be filled w/ the Spirit", and "they're not drunk as you suppose....."). I'm not convinced that when Paul was setting service in "decency and in order", he saw, or had this type of "spirit praise" in mind. However,

I do think its fine and great to feel excited when praising the One who redeemed us! How can that not be an exciting worth? The main problem I have is when it's expected and pushed as a show of being what makes you apostolic/pentecostal", and if you're not showing intense display, you're viewed as being backslid, not prayed up, or losin' the victory etc.

As far as "worship", I (personally) consider it to be much deeper and more serious than praise.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

That's kewl - I think I understand that.

In some things it does not matter as much, but I think it does matter more in this case. I would not approach it as a question of whether God changes or not, rather it's a matter of the veiled becoming revealed.

Much of the focus in the Old Testament was the outward formality and display of acceptable worship to God, while still yet acknowledging God sees the intent of the heart.

In the New Testament this is reversed. The formal gathering place and the mechanics of "worship" is minimized, and we are told we are the temple - and have the Holy Spirit in common earthen vessles. The focus is no longer so much on "ushering in" the presence of God.

Jesus spoke to this time when worship would be something of the heart and without pretension...

19"Sir," the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. 20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."

21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

"spirit" here means "inner man" or from the heart, not spiritED as many preach. God is a spiritual being and we must offer spiritual worship. Jesus was revealing a new thing, and certainly spirited worship was not new at that time. Also in this context "truth" is simply "without pretension" - God sees and knows the inner man.

So the focus of New Testament worship is the heart it'self, the inner man. Whether there is organized or formal demonstration is of little consequence.

Of course this does not mean heartfelt worship may not produce emotional results, it can and does - but I would say emotional orchestration simply does not and cannot produce or manufacture worship in spirit and in truth.

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Mechanics of worship minimized? Do you have scripture that shows that the mechanics of worship should be minimized? So at one point God liked physical worship and then He just changed? At one point men worshipped with all of their strength, and then - presto - God didn't want it that way any more?

I wonder what "spirit" and "truth" come from in the greek and what those greek words mean; ever look them up in Strong's?

Jesus was revealing a new thing, and certainly spirited worship was not new at that time. I'm not sure what this sentence is supposed to mean?

Do you think that the worship in the OT was emotionless?

I wonder what would happen if you stopped showing outward demonstration towards your wife and told her that the outward formal demonstration is of little consequence; or if she did the same to you?

Act 3:8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.
Act 3:9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God:

Perhaps someone should have told the lame man that his physical mechanics should be minimized?

Someone trying to minimize worship reminds me of 2 pieces of scripture...

Luk 19:37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;
Luk 19:38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.
Luk 19:39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.
Luk 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

2Sa 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.

Imagine that, one of God's people despising another one of God's people for leaping and dancing before the LORD.

Sorry to sound contradictory brother, but I just don't read scripture saying what you are saying.

Perhaps its just me?

What do other apostolics think?

[jaxfam6]

Originally Posted by shag

As far as "worship", I (personally) consider it to be much deeper and more serious than praise.

I believe Praise is what we do because of the things He does for us and gives to us. Worship is what we do because of WHO HE IS.

Hope that makes sense.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Mechanics of worship minimized? Do you have scripture that shows that the mechanics of worship should be minimized? So at one point God liked physical worship and then He just changed? At one point men worshipped with all of their strength, and then - presto - God didn't want it that way any more?

I wonder what "spirit" and "truth" come from in the greek and what those greek words mean; ever look them up in Strong's?

Jesus was revealing a new thing, and certainly spirited worship was not new at that time. I'm not sure what this sentence is supposed to mean?

Do you think that the worship in the OT was emotionless?

I wonder what would happen if you stopped showing outward demonstration towards your wife and told her that the outward formal demonstration is of little consequence; or if she did the same to you?

Act 3:8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.
Act 3:9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God:

Perhaps someone should have told the lame man that his physical mechanics should be minimized?

Someone trying to minimize worship reminds me of 2 pieces of scripture...

Luk 19:37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;
Luk 19:38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.
Luk 19:39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.
Luk 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

2Sa 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.

Imagine that, one of God's people despising another one of God's people for leaping and dancing before the LORD.

Sorry to sound contradictory brother, but I just don't read scripture saying what you are saying.

Perhaps its just me?

What do other apostolics think?

Wow, that is quite a response seeing it is primarily based on a misunderstanding of my post.

I stated: The formal gathering place and the mechanics of "worship" is minimized, and we are told we are the temple - and have the Holy Spirit in common earthen vessles. The focus is no longer so much on "ushering in" the presence of God.

I did not say worship was minimized as you falsely stated. I would say it is expanded actually, with the the Spirit Himself being the internal facilitator of true, unpretentious worship unto God.

Quite simply I am saying the focus in the New Testament is on the heart of the individual, not on the Temple and it's gold, the singers, dancers and musicians and their abilities.

The great treasure of the Holy Spirit is now found in common flesh.

I acknowledged that worshipping God with the inner man can produce emotion... not sure how you read otherwise.

"Of course this does not mean heartfelt worship may not produce emotional results, it can and does - but I would say emotional orchestration simply does not and cannot produce or manufacture worship in spirit and in truth."

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by jaxfam6

I believe Praise is what we do because of the things He does for us and gives to us. Worship is what we do because of WHO HE IS.

Hope that makes sense.

It makes sense, but might I submit that we worship and Praise the Lord Jesus for what he has DONE. If he weren't to give me one more blessing or if he were to abandon me altogether, I would still praise him for sheding his blood and redeeming me from sin. This is why his Grace is so powerful to me. The present and future doesn't really matter.

[mozet]

the answer is yes, not because pastor teaches, but the time I have it's because I felt a great joy, or appreciation. I am not quite sure on this yet. I just know that It happens.

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

Have you ever been in worship where you got so excited or felt the presence of God is such a special way that you responded in a way that is different than singing or clapping your hands?

Have you ever leaped for joy during worship or danced or ran the aisles?

If you have in the past, do you still do that every now and again?

If you still worship God in these ways from time to time, do you do it because your Pastor teaches that you should, or is it a willingly, freely, offered thing from you to God?

Do you demonstrate these types of worship even when you don't feel the presence of God, but just want to let him know that He is worthy of worship regardless of how you feel?

Do you worship God to get something from Him or do you worship God because worship is all about offering something unto Him and its not about you?

Do you believe that people that worship God in a demonstrative way are just out to get attention from others or do you think that they have made their minds up to just close their eyes and just worship God like its just them and Him?

This is a difficult question because on one hand I have quenched when I have felt that my physical being had to express the joy and Holy Spirit rushing through my body, on the other hand, I have seen visitors horrified watching people swing their hair about, shake, shutter, rolling about the floor as though they were having an epileptic fit.

So, do you tell the sister to dance quietly or tell her she has the freedom to do whatever she wants including but not limited to causing her flair skirt to flip over her head with out stopping her and quenching the Holy Ghost?

I think it is more important for a visitor to have a holy and relative experience that drives them to salvation than a person feeling a need to do a 60mph helicopter up and down the isles, knocking the beehives out of folks.

I have danced, I have ran, and you know what in the end, it wasn't very intense or edifying for that matter.

So I dunno. If I were a pastor (can you imagine?) I would teach to do things in order to the edification of the body and those needing to become part of the body.

[Fiyahstarter]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

When I am truly worshipping, I am on my knees or prostrate before God and weeping. Just Jesus and I. I feel clothed in his Spirit, and enveloped in his love.

Praising, I dance, shout, run, and holler...

Worship is all about Him, and praising is all about me. By that I mean...When I worship I am not asking Him for anything...I am awed and silent in His presence except for crying tears of gratitude and humility. But praising...I want to feel good and get God's attention so I go to extremes...but it is never about others, it is about trying to get to the place of worship.

I hope I explained that correctly.

Blessings, Rhoni

For me too -- It is as you say! Praise God, makes me want to get in "that place" now!

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

Wow, that is quite a response seeing it is primarily based on a misunderstanding of my post.

I stated: The formal gathering place and the mechanics of "worship" is minimized, and we are told we are the temple - and have the Holy Spirit in common earthen vessles. The focus is no longer so much on "ushering in" the presence of God.

I did not say worship was minimized as you falsely stated. I would say it is expanded actually, with the the Spirit Himself being the internal facilitator of true, unpretentious worship unto God.

Quite simply I am saying the focus in the New Testament is on the heart of the individual, not on the Temple and it's gold, the singers, dancers and musicians and their abilities.

The great treasure of the Holy Spirit is now found in common flesh.

I acknowledged that worshipping God with the inner man can produce emotion... not sure how you read otherwise.

"Of course this does not mean heartfelt worship may not produce emotional results, it can and does - but I would say emotional orchestration simply does not and cannot produce or manufacture worship in spirit and in truth."

Ok, sorry, my mistake, please forgive my misunderstanding.