Babylon in Revelations

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by tbpew

So, I have tried to explain that I was out to consider that a "universal seductress" may be manifested in the earth's economies; these engines are the means for humankind to acquire wealth as a means to power. When this idea is peppered with the plain witness that "the love of money is the ROOT OF ALL EVIL", it seems to get some traction in my pondering.

Yes sir. I can certainly agree with this thought. The scriptural admonition that the love of money is the root of all evil is, indeed, a universal one that continues for as long as mankind breathes air on this earth.

The scriptures being discussed in the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ would, most certainly, be the result of said tendency within the nature of man. That love of money, hence power, would be the base and driving force that led that great whore etc to her place of total and complete apostasy.

PS: Dig, I am going to need you to connect the dots with your cite:
Luk 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

If every prophet MUST PERISH inside of Jerusalem, please share the principle for me that is established in the law. I need your help in supply of some of your thinking here.

The basic thought that I have trying to get someone to address is this.

1. It is said in the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ that the great harlot (or whatever other names that city is known by) is guilty of the blood of the prophets.

2. Jesus said of Jerusalem...

Luk 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her] wings, and ye would not!
Luk 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until [the time] come when ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

The Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ also said that great city would be made desolate.

These things do not, of their own accord, make Jerusalem the undeniable lone candidate but they would seem to, most certainly, make that great city a worthy candidate for careful consideration.

The identity of this great city had already been shared in Revelation 11.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The city would sit on seven mountains.
Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Jerusalem sits on Mt. Goath, Mt. Gareb, Mt. Acra, Mt. Bezetha, Mt. Zion, Mt. Ophel, and Mt. Moriah.

There may very well be some overflowing universal application that we see played over and over again as man continues to fall for the love of money that comes so naturally but these scriptures seem, to me, to speak to a very real city have a very literal application.

I don't deny, in the least, the universal application that you speak of. But I do not feel that any universal application would be so sans any specific and tangible interpretation. Especially in the face of such a growing cloud of witnesses.

[Michael The Disciple]

No way it is Jerusalem. In the first century when it fell (again) the merchants of the Earth spent no time wailing and mourning. It was nothing economically compared to Rome. Neither did its judgment come in one hour. It was beseiged over time.

In this century Jerusalem would not survive more than a few weeks without the assistance of the USA. There is no comparison whatever between the economic might of America and Israel.

[mfblume]

Jesus said that all the blood shed on the earth was to be meted upon Jerusalem's head. The end of rev 18 shows the Babylon of Revelation to have been slain and in her was found the blood of all shed on the earth.

If we allow the bible to interpret itself, Jerusalem of old was the Babylon when John wrote Revelation. She became what she was delivered from, herself.

Matthew 23:35 KJV That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Revelation 18:24 KJV And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Two different parties cannot be said to have ALL the blood shed on earth. Jesus said Jerusalem was guilty of it all since Abel to Zecharias. If the Babylon of Revelation is not the same Jerusalem, then she could not have ALL the blood on earth in her, because Jerusalem was guilty of that from at least the time of Abel to Zecharias.

While this view takes away the sensationalism away from prophecy from some views' perspectives, it puts the focus of the doom and gloom under the canopy of the time surrounding the cross, which is more correct, overall, anyway.

MTD, you just have to see that revelation uses biblical imagery and is not face-valued. Otherwise, if you're correct, Rev 18 cannot say someone other than Jerusalem had ALL The blood of the earth that was shed in her.

If Jerusalem was left with only the blood from Abel to Zecharias, although Jesus said she would be guilty of scourgings and crucifixions, and Babylon in Rev 18 was someone else, then Rev 18 could not say ALL. It could only say ALL SINCE the date when Jerusalem was gone, due to the innumerable deaths Jerusalem caused from Jesus' own words.

So we either realize Revelation (without an "S" -- ) is SYMBOLIC, or else there is a contradiction between the two verses I cited above. What makes more sense? You can find a parallel picture of every single Revelation symbol used when you look elsewhere in the Bible, showing us that Revelation took pictures from the rest of the Bible and applied them symbolically like a TYPE and SHADOW to the events Revelation was actually referring to in John's day. This shows it is SYMBOLIC.

See if MERCHANTS can be understood spiritually of something associated with Jerusalem.

Recall that Jesus said the moneychangers turned the temple in to a den of thieves. Without a temple.....

My thoughts, anyway.

[Blubayou]

Thanks for all the comments- I will be more careful about typing Revelation(s) from now on!

[Raven]

Mystery Babylon
It's the spirit of this world. It began with the fall and manifested itself fully at Babel. It permeates every fiber and intent of the world we live in today. It is found in every powerful government right down to the despot in some little known third world country. It's not Rome, Babel or New York but yet it is all of these. It's the gold, the trade, the markets, the laws, and the lawmakers. It's an intangible force that will wreak havoc and hold civilization in its sway until Christ comes with His elect and destroys it with the brightness of His coming. It has been and will always be anti-christ. Man's feeble attempt to create a lasting kingdom by his own works. Even so come quickly Lord Jesus!

Raven

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Jesus said that all the blood shed on the earth was to be meted upon Jerusalem's head. The end of rev 18 shows the Babylon of Revelation to have been slain and in her was found the blood of all shed on the earth.

If we allow the bible to interpret itself, Jerusalem of old was the Babylon when John wrote Revelation. She became what she was delivered from, herself.

.....

Mike,
Your post invites us to allow the bible to interpret itself.
I am now purposing to apply that same principle to my reading of your post.

Are you establishing Mystery Babylon as Jerusalem?

I presently am left to surmise this (pending your own interpretation of your own post) because your words include:
"Two different parties cannot be said to have ALL the blood shed on earth. Jesus said Jerusalem was guilty of it all since Abel to Zecharias. If the Babylon of Revelation is not the same Jerusalem, then she could not have ALL the blood on earth in her, because Jerusalem was guilty of that from at least the time of Abel to Zecharias. "

May I also inquire as to how you place Abel's murder in (or comissioned by) Jerusalem? I can not get Luke 11 to triangulate on Jerusalem in my reading.

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Blubayou

Thanks for all the comments- I will be more careful about typing Revelation(s) from now on!

Don't be too hard on yourself....afterall, if the removal of the plurality-causing 's' is of signficance and value, dropping the ...'of Jesus Christ' is disasterous.

[Blubayou]

Very true!

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Raven

Mystery Babylon
It's the spirit of this world. It began with the fall and manifested itself fully at Babel. It permeates every fiber and intent of the world we live in today. It is found in every powerful government right down to the despot in some little known third world country. It's not Rome, Babel or New York but yet it is all of these. It's the gold, the trade, the markets, the laws, and the lawmakers. It's an intangible force that will wreak havoc and hold civilization in its sway until Christ comes with His elect and destroys it with the brightness of His coming. It has been and will always be anti-christ. Man's feeble attempt to create a lasting kingdom by his own works. Even so come quickly Lord Jesus!

Raven

Raven,
could you share how your perspective would make the scriptural witness that this "Mystery Babylon" is:
1. The mother of all harlots
2. Drunk with the blood of the saints and martyrs.

I am just trying to pull some more stuff out of you. I am not positioning for any kind of .

The discussion has turned out to be rather interesting (to me) and I would like to see folks with well established views share them openly.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by tbpew

Mike,
Your post invites us to allow the bible to interpret itself.
I am now purposing to apply that same principle to my reading of your post.

Are you establishing Mystery Babylon as Jerusalem?

Revelation 18 said Babylon was guilty of all blood shed on earth. Jesus claimed Jerusalem was guilty of that in Matthew 23. I am just saying ther eis contradiction if we claim Babylon is not Jerusalem. And I am implying need for an explanation as to how it would not be contradictory for Babylon to not be Jerusalem.

I presently am left to surmise this (pending your own interpretation of your own post) because your words include:
"Two different parties cannot be said to have ALL the blood shed on earth. Jesus said Jerusalem was guilty of it all since Abel to Zecharias. If the Babylon of Revelation is not the same Jerusalem, then she could not have ALL the blood on earth in her, because Jerusalem was guilty of that from at least the time of Abel to Zecharias. "

May I also inquire as to how you place Abel's murder in (or comissioned by) Jerusalem? I can not get Luke 11 to triangulate on Jerusalem in my reading.

I am just quoting Jesus. I did not say Jerusalem committed the murder, but that Jesus put the guilt for it on Jerusalem.

Matthew 23:35 KJV That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

A cup was being filled everytime someone was murdered. Someone was going to come good for it. It turned out that Jerusalem filled the cup! So the wrath for those murders was meted out upon her. Revelation reflects that in speaking of Babylon.

Watch this connection to Jerusalem as well:

Babylon was guilty of the blood of all slain on the earth, the prophets and the saints. (Rev 18:24).

That blood made Babylon drunk along with the kings of the earth. The blood was from the golden cup in Babylon's hand. (Rev. 17:6, 2, 4)

Jesus said Jerusalem was guilty of all the blood of the prophets that was shed upon the earth all the way back to Abel. (Matt 23:31, 35)

Jesus also said Jerusalem filled the measure. A cup is in view. (Matt 23:32)

Jerusalem asked for the BLOOD to be put upon her and her children (my daughters) (Mat 27:25)?

The Apostle said that Babylon would be given the cup of the fierceness of God's wrath (Rev 16:19).

Paul said this wrath was for those guilty of the killings of the prophets and Jesus. (1 Thess 2:15, 16)

God will avenge (Rev 18:20).

Babylon was called that GREAT CITY (Rev. 16:19; 17:18)

The great City was where our Lord was crucified (Rev 11:8).

Jerusalem was once a FAITHFUL CITY (Isa. 1:21)

Isaiah 1:21 KJV How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

Babylon sits on 7 mountains (Rev 17:9)

Jerusalem became the whore on many hills and sits on seven mountains (Jer 2:20).

Jerusalem played the harlot time and time again as noted throughout Ezekiel 16. Read entire chapter and note the kings of the earth are mentioned. WORLD powers.

Acts 4 has the disciples praying about the persecution from the leaders of Jerusalem and Israel who worked TOGETHER WITH THE KINGS OF THE EARTH. (Acts 4:26-28)

Acts 4:26-28 KJV The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. (27) For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, (28) For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Revelation 17:1-2 KJV And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: (2) With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Ezekiel 16:28-29 KJV Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied. (29) Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied herewith.