The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by bishoph

Remember that when the report was given to the Jerusalem council concerning Cornelius and his household they identified tongues as the "proof" that the Holy Ghost had fallen on the gentiles the same as it had on the Day of Pentecost. Therefore, it is reasonable to say that every time the writer of the book of Acts says someone received the Holy Ghost they are making that statement based on what they had established as the "initial" sign. If there had been any other "alternative" proof of having received the Holy Ghost it would have been noted.

Exactly! Thank you!!!

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

So you say, it's reasonable. Millions upon millions of Christians that show forth the sign Paul wrote about (Fruits and Love) reasonably disagree with your humble opinion.

Normative would then conclude that all liars would drop dead in the middle of a church service and be carried out by the ushers as did Ananias and Sapphira in acts 5

Acts is a historical account of things that happened in the early church not necessarily written to establish doctrines.

No where were we given instructions in the epistles that tongues were normative as salvational evidence.

In fact the epistles declare that God manifes all the gifts in believrs AS HE CHOOSES declaring some manifest prophrcy, some gifts of healing, some discernmet SOME tongues..... AS HE DECIDES.

and askes rehtoriclly, "do all speak with tongues"?


and please. enough with the argument that there are tongues as a gift and tongues as initial evidence......there is no scripture stating that.

I spent thirty years in the camp of the three steppers initial evidence folks.

I taught this doctrine o people and for that I have asked forgivness.

I speak in tongues. You speak in tongues all yuo'd like (within the guidelines of 1 Cor 12,13,14) but please examine closely your exegesis of your proof texts.

I respect your right to an opinion, however, IMO, Such arguments are straw men that are conjured up to justify a departure from sound doctrine. To use your logic...... There were millions of Jews who believed that followers of Jesus were heretics and had blasphemed against God by their conversion.....that did not make the majority right, and the Christians wrong; anymore than it makes the non-tongue talking folks right, and the tongue talking or tongue as a sign believing people wrong..... C'mon you can do better than that.

Secondly, your example to explain away "normative" is quite funny. There is only one instance of people falling over dead as a result of lying to the Holy Ghost found in the New Testament, and no where can we find any evidence that when others fell over dead they said ...."we know that they lied because they fell over dead the same as Ananias and Sapphira did when they lied." Again Bro......C'mon you know better than that!

And last but not least......you are correct....the epistles do not address the "normative" of tongues being present when one is filled with the Holy Ghost, because all of the writers of the epistles had spoke with tongues and understood it was the accepted "norm."

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by snicker1986

Thank You!!

This is the most concise description I have ever seen of what I have long beleived.

I DO beleive that tongues is an experience that God gives us to confirm is presence with us, and bring us closer to him, but I have NEVER gotten a good explanation for how one could be repentant, have his sins washed away, and yet end up in hell.

In scriptural study, one must always identify passages as descriptive (things that DID happen) from perscriptive (things that MUST happen). Tongues on receiving the holy Ghost, as noted in the 4 Acts stories that are used to show tongues as evidence, are things that DID happen. Acts 2:38 tells us what MUST happen.

Some would say everything that DID happen MUST happen again, but passages about the OT patriarchs multiple wives and concubines were clearly historic descriptions and not an instruction to us today. So to the descriptions in Acts of the early church living communally.

Dont get me wrong...Tongues are to be desired for spiritual growth, and should be taught.....but not as salvational

The tongues that DID happen show what happens when someone receives the Spirit

The MUST happen is...you MUST receive the Spirit.

Patriarchs having multiple wives is not an example of something happening when one is filled with the Spirit.

[freeatlast]

1 Cor 12: 7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

vs 11 tells us that God gives each one of us the "MANIFESTION" of his spirit in our lives in SEVERAL differnet ways

We seem to want to see only tongues as evidence of the spirit being manifest in a believers life.

In verse 18 Paul again instructs that the gifts are distubted to each but as HE WILL

18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be.

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

You know, on this initial evidence topic.

Acts 10:44-48 was NORMATIVE...there ya go, I agree.

It was NORMATIVE that when people heard the gospel in faith that they received the Holy Spirit. It is just an automatic.

What WAS NOT normative in this account was that they spoke in tongues when this happened.

It was so UNnormative that the believers that were with Peter were AMAZED.

It was not what they normally saw happen when people responded to the gospel.

What usally occured was like when the Philipian jailer got saved and when Lydia came to faith. No mention of them speaking in tongues.

No mention of the 3000 speaking in tongues.

There is way to much ASSUMING going on in the 3 step initial evidence doctrine.

Yes, tongues were a sign in the instances we all rally upon BUT there is nothing that should lead any of us to believe that this will happen in every instance every time.

The Acts do not record tongues in every instance that people come to faith.

Freeatlast, I have often read your responses on different topics and enjoyed them, however, on this topic you have really used some illogical reasoning. For you to try to use the fact that the witnesses of the Holy Ghost outpouring on Cornelius and his household as proof that this was not "normative," is ridiculous. They were amazed because they did not believe that the gentiles could be saved.....not because they were surprised that they spoke in tongues. The fact that they spoke with tongues was the proof that they had received the spirit.

Using the term "came to faith" (unless you are now a one stepper) does not equal salvation. I believe many people come to a point of faith, which opens their heart to seek after God, and leads them to repentance. However, if they do not follow on to know the Lord it does them no good.

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by bishoph

Freeatlast, I have often read your responses on different topics and enjoyed them, however, on this topic you have really used some illogical reasoning. For you to try to use the fact that the witnesses of the Holy Ghost outpouring on Cornelius and his household as proof that this was not "normative," is ridiculous. They were amazed because they did not believe that the gentiles could be saved.....not because they were surprised that they spoke in tongues. The fact that they spoke with tongues was the proof that they had received the spirit.

Using the term "came to faith" (unless you are now a one stepper) does not equal salvation. I believe many people come to a point of faith, which opens their heart to seek after God, and leads them to repentance. However, if they do not follow on to know the Lord it does them no good.

and you are certain of this because you assume everybody speaks in tongues when Gods spirit fills them.

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

1 Cor 12: 7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

vs 11 tells us that God gives each one of us the "MANIFESTION" of his spirit in our lives in SEVERAL differnet ways

We seem to want to see only tongues as evidence of the spirit being manifest in a believers life.

In verse 18 Paul again instructs that the gifts are distubted to each but as HE WILL

18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be.

I love it when someone uses this scripture!!!!! Notice, "Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good." here the Apostle Paul makes it very clear that there is "the manifestation" of "the spirit" that is given for the common good. In other words every believer will receive the same manifestation of the spirit. He then goes on to describe that after one has received the spirit (with the same manifestation as everyone else) that there are diverse giftings that are the result of one receiving the spirit. Many different gifts and different administration of those gifts.....one spirit and one common manifestation of that one spirit....with diverse gifts and operations as a result of having the one spirit.

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by bishoph

I love it when someone uses this scripture!!!!! Notice, "[I]Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good." [/I]here the Apostle Paul makes it very clear that there is "the manifestation" of "the spirit" that is given for the common good. In other words every believer will receive the same manifestation of the spirit. He then goes on to describe that after one has received the spirit (with the same manifestation as everyone else) that there are diverse giftings that are the result of one receiving the spirit. Many different gifts and different administration of those gifts.....one spirit and one common manifestation of that one spirit....with diverse gifts and operations as a result of having the one spirit.

Brother ..you read much between the lines on that response. That is in no way indicating that.

[freeatlast]

1 Cor 12: 7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

(Sure Bishop break it apart her and insert all will manifest the gift of tongues" )


8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

and you are certain of this because you assume everybody speaks in tongues when Gods spirit fills them.

No.....no assumption here!!!! It's pretty much there in black and white.

Acts 10:44-46 KJV
44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. the next verse tells how they knew that the Holy Ghost was given. 46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

ESV
44While Peter was still saying these things,(BO) the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45And the believers from among(BP) the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because(BQ) the gift of the Holy Spirit(BR) was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they were hearing them(BS) speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared,

AMP
And the believers from among the circumcised [the Jews] who came with Peter were surprised and amazed, because the free gift of the Holy Spirit had been bestowed and poured out largely even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them talking in [unknown] tongues (languages) and extolling and magnifying God. Then Peter asked,