Cult of the Past: Apostolic Identity Revealed?

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by coadie

I bet people didn't fall asleep in the middle of one of his sermons.

Colin Powell had to hold him BACK!

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Charnock

Bruce Tuckman said that every group goes through five stages.

1. Forming
2. Storming
3. Norming
4. Performing
5. Adjourning

Charnock, where do you see this group?

[Charnock]

Originally Posted by Charnock

Bruce Tuckman said that every group goes through five stages.

1. Forming
2. Storming
3. Norming
4. Performing
5. Adjourning

Originally Posted by DAII

Charnock, where do you see this group?

I don't think the group is adjourning. I think the UPC will exist for many years to come. However, I do believe forming is over. Storming took place in 45. Norming and performing are still taking place.

The process of "norming" is hindering the performance of the group.

[Charnock]

Oneness Pentecostalism is too defined.

The God of Oneness Pentecostals is limited. He can only move along predictable channels that church elders have carved out. In this way he is nothing more than an image created by man.

As Biblical knowledge has increased, and many of the standards of the past have been exposed as human creations with no scriptural foundation, organizational leaders have began appealing to our sense of reverence and respect for our ancestors instead of directing us to a more perfect way.

I believe God has rejected the ideals and methods of traditional Oneness Pentecostalism and is pouring out His Spirit upon all flesh.

Survival of the fittest has a spiritual application. Only the strong survive, and the extra-biblical doctrines of Oneness Pentecostals are a poor substitute for spiritual strength.

[coadie]

Originally Posted by Charnock

Oneness Pentecostalism is too defined.

The God of Oneness Pentecostals is limited. He can only move along predictable channels that church elders have carved out. In this way he is nothing more than an image created by man.

As Biblical knowledge has increased, and many of the standards of the past have been exposed as human creations with no scriptural foundation, organizational leaders have began appealing to our sense of reverence and respect for our ancestors instead of directing us to a more perfect way.

I believe God has rejected the ideals and methods of traditional Oneness Pentecostalism and is pouring out His Spirit upon all flesh.

Survival of the fittest has a spiritual application. Only the strong survive, and the extra-biblical doctrines of Oneness Pentecostals are a poor substitute for spiritual strength.

For when I am weak, then I am strong.

False doctrine.

You are reading far too many business and self help manuals.
When we hear buzzwords from business and motivational; speakers, we smell some balogna/.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Charnock

...
I believe God has rejected the ideals and methods of traditional Oneness Pentecostalism and is pouring out His Spirit upon all flesh.
...
.

Jesus came with a fresh message and was despised by the religionists of His day. They could not control Him or His followers. The religionists of His day had a faith based on God's Word and revelation but they had smothered it with traditions and it had become dead and formal.

The reformation under Martin Luther and other leaders challenged a large, corrupt religious establishment which offered little in the way of a live and vibrant life-changing message. Various "Protestant" churches developed based on Scripture vs tradition. Lots of traditions were carried over into those churches. Periods of revival came and things "happened" in those churches but in time tradition, formality, and maintaining the status quo took over.

Around the end of the 1800's and beginning of the 1900's the Holy Spirit was poured out in Armenia, India, Topeka, Houston, Los Angeles and around the world. Another great shake up as the traditional churches resisted and fought against the new move of the Spirit. We who consider ourselves Apostolic or Pentecostal or Charismatic look back to those days as our heritage and beginning.

In the 1940's the Pentecostal or Apostolic churches had become fat, lazy, careless, and formal and God began to move outside those churches in new ways. The Latter Rain movement placed a renewed emphasis on the Holy Spirit and His working and gifting. A few years later the Healing Revival (Branham, Coe, Allen, Roberts, etc) brought another emphasis on God's power and intervention in the lives of individuals. FGBMFI (Full Gospel Business Men's Fellowship International) developed as a place for people to gather and fellowship outside the mainline denominational churches and outside the mainline Pentecostal/Apostolic churches.

A few more years later and we saw the Charismatic movement and the Jesus People. Since then we've seen the Vineyard, Willow Creek, Saddle Back, the Third Wave, and the Prophetic/Intercession movement.

Each time God has moved there has been:
1. decline in the established church,
2. God moves outside the established church,
3. and the established church rejects the move of God.
4. In time the latest move of God becomes organized and then stagnant.

Many of our churches, UPC, AoG, CoG, etc have become overly organized and ingrown and God just starts moving outside the established religious order.

Has God left the UPC and the AoG and the Vineyard and the FGBMFI? No, He's still working there but we have pretty well hindered Him and boxed Him in and only recognize what He does if it agrees with our own protocol. That's why He goes "outside the camp" where He can find those who are hungering and thirsting after Him and who long more for God than they do for the Manuals, rules, protocol, human leadership, politics, etc.

[Charnock]

Originally Posted by Charnock

Oneness Pentecostalism is too defined.

The God of Oneness Pentecostals is limited. He can only move along predictable channels that church elders have carved out. In this way he is nothing more than an image created by man.

As Biblical knowledge has increased, and many of the standards of the past have been exposed as human creations with no scriptural foundation, organizational leaders have began appealing to our sense of reverence and respect for our ancestors instead of directing us to a more perfect way.

I believe God has rejected the ideals and methods of traditional Oneness Pentecostalism and is pouring out His Spirit upon all flesh.

Survival of the fittest has a spiritual application. Only the strong survive, and the extra-biblical doctrines of Oneness Pentecostals are a poor substitute for spiritual strength.

Originally Posted by Sam

Jesus came with a fresh message and was despised by the religionists of His day. They could not control Him or His followers. The religionists of His day had a faith based on God's Word and revelation but they had smothered it with traditions and it had become dead and formal.

The reformation under Martin Luther and other leaders challenged a large, corrupt religious establishment which offered little in the way of a live and vibrant life-changing message. Various "Protestant" churches developed based on Scripture vs tradition. Lots of traditions were carried over into those churches. Periods of revival came and things "happened" in those churches but in time tradition, formality, and maintaining the status quo took over.

Around the end of the 1800's and beginning of the 1900's the Holy Spirit was poured out in Armenia, India, Topeka, Houston, Los Angeles and around the world. Another great shake up as the traditional churches resisted and fought against the new move of the Spirit. We who consider ourselves Apostolic or Pentecostal or Charismatic look back to those days as our heritage and beginning.

In the 1940's the Pentecostal or Apostolic churches had become fat, lazy, careless, and formal and God began to move outside those churches in new ways. The Latter Rain movement placed a renewed emphasis on the Holy Spirit and His working and gifting. A few years later the Healing Revival (Branham, Coe, Allen, Roberts, etc) brought another emphasis on God's power and intervention in the lives of individuals. FGBMFI (Full Gospel Business Men's Fellowship International) developed as a place for people to gather and fellowship outside the mainline denominational churches and outside the mainline Pentecostal/Apostolic churches.

A few more years later and we saw the Charismatic movement and the Jesus People. Since then we've seen the Vineyard, Willow Creek, Saddle Back, the Third Wave, and the Prophetic/Intercession movement.

Each time God has moved there has been:
1. decline in the established church,
2. God moves outside the established church,
3. and the established church rejects the move of God.
4. In time the latest move of God becomes organized and then stagnant.

Many of our churches, UPC, AoG, CoG, etc have become overly organized and ingrown and God just starts moving outside the established religious order.

Has God left the UPC and the AoG and the Vineyard and the FGBMFI? No, He's still working there but we have pretty well hindered Him and boxed Him in and only recognize what He does if it agrees with our own protocol. That's why He goes "outside the camp" where He can find those who are hungering and thirsting after Him and who long more for God than they do for the Manuals, rules, protocol, human leadership, politics, etc.

We agree!

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Charnock

Oneness Pentecostalism is too defined.

The God of Oneness Pentecostals is limited. He can only move along predictable channels that church elders have carved out. In this way he is nothing more than an image created by man.

As Biblical knowledge has increased, and many of the standards of the past have been exposed as human creations with no scriptural foundation, organizational leaders have began appealing to our sense of reverence and respect for our ancestors instead of directing us to a more perfect way.

I believe God has rejected the ideals and methods of traditional Oneness Pentecostalism and is pouring out His Spirit upon all flesh.

Survival of the fittest has a spiritual application. Only the strong survive, and the extra-biblical doctrines of Oneness Pentecostals are a poor substitute for spiritual strength.

Pretty strong words.
Did you give up your UPC license?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Charnock

Oneness Pentecostalism is too defined.

The God of Oneness Pentecostals is limited. He can only move along predictable channels that church elders have carved out. In this way he is nothing more than an image created by man.

As Biblical knowledge has increased, and many of the standards of the past have been exposed as human creations with no scriptural foundation, organizational leaders have began appealing to our sense of reverence and respect for our ancestors instead of directing us to a more perfect way.

I believe God has rejected the ideals and methods of traditional Oneness Pentecostalism and is pouring out His Spirit upon all flesh.

Survival of the fittest has a spiritual application. Only the strong survive, and the extra-biblical doctrines of Oneness Pentecostals are a poor substitute for spiritual strength.

I personally agree with you on the above points.

We are guilty of creating God in our own image and then limiting Him to that image.

[Sabby]

"Originally Posted by coadie
No. After church is out on Sunday morning, people drive themselves home to lunch or work. Verbal abuse is common at employment also. The military has much more control than do these churches"

Your last sentence reminded me of something I should have mentioned in my previous post on this thread. Living for God should NEVER be compared with the control the military has over a person's life. It's just not a good comparison. Pastoral authority is never to be confused with control.!

BTW, I am retired military.