The Role of a New Testament Prophet

[Sam]

information for you young preachers, back in the day, we just had our Bibles (Scofield, Dake, Thompson Chain, and Dixon), concordances, and Bible Dictionaries. We also had the Oneness Pentecostal Correspondence Course which was a two volume edition of mimeographed pages. Volume 1 contained lessons on some Old Testament books like Genesis, Exodus, Ester Ruth and Hosea plus 26 lessons on The Tabernacle. These were by Mrs. E. Rohn. This volume also contained 37 lessons on church history by Myrl Nutting. These lessons also contained information on Daniel's image with the head of gold on down to the feet of iron and clay and spoke of Mussolin's ventures into Ethiopia (1935-1936) and speaks of "The Spanish Civil War now raging in Spain (January 1939). Volume 2 of that course was called "Rightly Dividing the Word" by John H. Dearing and contains "100 Bible Subjects" and "Several Complete N.T. Books."

It is my understanding that at one time this was part of the required reading for someone who wanted to obtain license with the UPC but did not have a Bible School education.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Sam

information for you young preachers, back in the day, we just had our Bibles (Scofield, Dake, Thompson Chain, and Dixon), concordances, and Bible Dictionaries. We also had the Oneness Pentecostal Correspondence Course which was a two volume edition of mimeographed pages. Volume 1 contained lessons on some Old Testament books like Genesis, Exodus, Ester Ruth and Hosea plus 26 lessons on The Tabernacle. These were by Mrs. E. Rohn. This volume also contained 37 lessons on church history by Myrl Nutting. These lessons also contained information on Daniel's image with the head of gold on down to the feet of iron and clay and spoke of Mussolin's ventures into Ethiopia (1935-1936) and speaks of "The Spanish Civil War now raging in Spain (January 1939). Volume 2 of that course was called "Rightly Dividing the Word" by John H. Dearing and contains "100 Bible Subjects" and "Several Complete N.T. Books."

It is my understanding that at one time this was part of the required reading for someone who wanted to obtain license with the UPC but did not have a Bible School education.

My copy of this course is in two volumes of loose leaf pages that I obtained in 1956.

A newer version is called the First Edition and was copyrighted in 1966 by E. Rohn and shows contributors as E. Rohn, Mrs. E. Rohn, Myrl Nutting, John Dearing, and Ruby Martin with Editors: David K. Bernard, Johnny Celey and then a Revised Edition copy righted in 2001 Word Aflame Press Hazelwood, MO 63042-2299. I have a pdf copy but it is too large to attach to a post here. I can furnish it to anyone who will contact me and give me an email address where they can receive a large pdf as an attachment.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by acerrak

trust me there was words of prophecy envolved i just didnt tell them here. cause they were for me and my wife, but you can actually see some of it already unfolding in my other "what would you do post."

but yet i have seen prophecies to comfort and edify, i have also seen them as a rebuke and a warning

Then you are not reading the same bible I am
1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

As I said we don't know the meaning of the gifts. I will take the bible definition. Like I said those that rebuke, and warn may also be word of wisdom, or word of Knowledge.

Bottom line when we lift up a person and call them a prophet, pastor, apostle, etc we are lifting up man instead of the gift, and taking the focus off of God.

Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

[Godsdrummer]

Thank you Sam
I too have the Pentecostal Bible study course. And it is true at one time it was equired reading, along with the book United We Stand I can't remmember it seems there was one other book besides the bible, which had to have been read thru, to obtain your local license. I carried local for four years, as I could preach out with that, I did not get my general till we went to start a Home Missions church, as by UPCI standards one could not pastor or marry or baptize, unless he/she had General license. As I was never out for the title (maybe a little at first, just that I was a minister) I never did get ordained by UPCI although I had completed everything needed. I carried General license for six years. At such time let them go back.

To Ace, Stephenroehm, and Jeffery you can put all the examples you want about what a prophet did or said in OT or NT but as Sam has shown, what we think when we see the word prophet is not what was intened when the writter used the word. From my point of view a prophet would be nothing more than what we call a preacher in many congregations.

I don't have all the answers but I do have more than what most commonly accept as I have been exposed to more of the gifts of the spirit in the last three years than I did in 40+ years in UPCI. So I have made a point to study this in more detail.

[acerrak]

well jonah was a prophet and he brought words of condemnation to ninevah.
the words he spoke was to rebuke the city into repentance or they surely would face the comming judgement.

also david had a prophet he confided in, but they also reffered to david as a prophet.

i believe i am going to state that i was wrong on my interpretation of a prophet and agree with Godsdrummer.

i dont believe we have prophets in the Nt.exspecially the same type of prophets that was used in the old testament. though one can interpret a man who has gifts of the Spirit to be as one, i believe we have gifts of prophecy, but not prophets, so i dont think we have a 5 fold ministry

hebrews 11:1-2
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

[Godsdrummer]

Ace

Line upon line, precept upon precept, I found I don't know half what I thought I knew in my younger years, but God gives line upon line etc. I have learned I hold my base understanding but never close my eyes that I might not understand or have all understanding of some things. sometimes it is hard to not be tossed by every wind of doctrine but on the same hand we must study to show ourselves approved, rightly dividing the word.

I truly beleive that Paul was speaking of gift, of the spirit in Ephesians 4, not offices of authority.

Decons, Elders, and Bishops were chosen (ordained) by the church, to take care of the day to day administrative functions of the body of christ. God would work through the gifts in the assembly and individualy, in a manor that no one person could be lifted up above another in a position of spiritual leadership. As God held this for himself.

Hence Paul did not instruct one to become a prophet, rather to seek prophecy one of the several gifts of the spirit.

Just my thoughts.

[stephenroehm]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Thank you Sam
I too have the Pentecostal Bible study course. And it is true at one time it was equired reading, along with the book United We Stand I can't remmember it seems there was one other book besides the bible, which had to have been read thru, to obtain your local license. I carried local for four years, as I could preach out with that, I did not get my general till we went to start a Home Missions church, as by UPCI standards one could not pastor or marry or baptize, unless he/she had General license. As I was never out for the title (maybe a little at first, just that I was a minister) I never did get ordained by UPCI although I had completed everything needed. I carried General license for six years. At such time let them go back.

To Ace, Stephenroehm, and Jeffery you can put all the examples you want about what a prophet did or said in OT or NT but as Sam has shown, what we think when we see the word prophet is not what was intened when the writter used the word. From my point of view a prophet would be nothing more than what we call a preacher in many congregations.

I don't have all the answers but I do have more than what most commonly accept as I have been exposed to more of the gifts of the spirit in the last three years than I did in 40+ years in UPCI. So I have made a point to study this in more detail.

It concerns me that you are not willing to accept Biblical examples to broaden your knowledge. I am absolutely not saying that I know more than anyone else here, because if I did, I would instantly make myself a fool. Nor will I toss around the amount of experience I have in church or the time I have spent studying the Word as a way to prove my point, as it is irrelevant. God chooses to give wisdom to those who seek it, regardless of age or position or title. But one thing I do know is that as soon as we stop allowing ourselves to be open-minded to knowledge and revelation and as soon as we stop seeking those things with our whole hearts, we stop growing. The only "expert" on the Word of God is God.

The definitions of the words as well as the way those words were used in context in the Bible must agree, otherwise it's simply our understanding that is in err. How can the Bible inspire faith if it doesn't agree with itself? Could it be that prophecy is the gift that the LORD gives to His body and that one who possesses that gift is referred to as a prophet? Not necessarily as an "office of authority", but as a way to identify who possesses the gift? I am thinking of this in the same sense that a person who has the gift of athleticism to play the sport of basketball would be called a basketball player.

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by Sam

It is my understanding that a prophet is one who speaks for another.

According to the Strongs Concordance the word in the Old Testament is nabiy
5029 nbiy' neb-ee' (Aramaic) corresponding to 5030; a prophet:--prophet.
5030 nabiy' naw-bee' from 5012; a prophet or (generally) inspired man:--prophecy, that prophesy, prophet. 5031 nbiy'ah neb-ee-yaw' feminine of 5030; a prophetess or (generally) inspired woman; by implication, a poetess; by association a prophet's wife:--prophetess.

I have also heard or read somewhere that it can also mean "to bubble up" describing how a person speaks as the Holy Spirit within him/her bubbles up

In the New Testament the word is prophetes
4394. propheteia prof-ay-ti'-ah from 4396 ("prophecy"); prediction (scriptural or other):--prophecy, prophesying.
4395. propheteuo prof-ate-yoo'-o from 4396; to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office:--prophesy.
4396. prophetes prof-ay'-tace from a compound of 4253 and 5346; a foreteller ("prophet"); by analogy, an inspired speaker; by extension, a poet:--prophet.
4397. prophetikos prof-ay-tik-os' from 4396; pertaining to a foreteller ("prophetic"):--of prophecy, of the prophets. 4398. prophetis prof-ay'-tis feminine of 4396; a female foreteller or an inspired woman:--prophetess. 5578. pseudoprophetes psyoo-dop-rof-ay'-tace from 5571 and 4396; a spurious prophet, i.e. pretended foreteller or religious impostor:--false prophet.

I have heard or read somewhere that the word prophetes can mean "one who speaks for another." In my Apostolic Bible Polyglott (which is a Greek/English interlinear Bible) with Strongs numbers the definition for prophetes is "declarer." In that Bible, Exodus 7:1 reads: "And the Lord said to Moses, saying, Behold I have made you as a god to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother will be your prophet." The Greek word translated prophet there is prophetes (no. 4396). As Aaron was the spokesperson for Moses, a prophet (prophetes) is a spokesperson for God --or a prophet is one who speaks for God.

Another Old Testament word for prophet was "seer" (reference 1 Samuel 9:6-9 where Samuel is called "a man of God" and also a "seer" with the explanation that the person usually called a prophet at the time this book was written used to be called a seer."

The word seer in the Old Testament is Strong's number 7300 or 2374
7200 ra'ah raw-aw' a primitive root; to see, literally or figuratively (in numerous applications, direct and implied, transitive, intransitive and causative):--advise self, appear, approve, behold, X certainly, consider, discern, (make to) enjoy, have experience, gaze, take heed, X indeed, X joyfully, lo, look (on, one another, one on another, one upon another, out, up, upon), mark, meet, X be near, perceive, present, provide, regard, (have) respect, (fore-, cause to, let) see(-r, -m, one another), shew (self), X sight of others, (e-)spy, stare, X surely, X think, view, visions.
or
2374 chozeh kho-zeh' active participle of 2372; a beholder in vision; also a compact (as looked upon with approval):--agreement, prophet, see that, seer, (star-)gazer.

It is my understanding that the term "seer" meant that a prophet had spiritual discernment or could see things from more than just a human viewpoint or could actually see visions.

Note: These quotes from Strongs are taken from
http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html
I used the second option of entering the Strong's number and choosing either Hebrew or Greek in Strong's Lexicon.

I do not read Hebrew or Greek so I am at the mercy of the authors of the Strong's Concordance.

Years ago there were three main concordances that I heard of: Cruden's, Strong's, and Young's. Someone said that Cruden's was for the crude, Young's was for the young, and Strong's was for the Strong. That was in the day before the internet when we had to look at paper copies of Bibles, commentaries, concordances, etc.

[Sabby]

How does this definition of NT prophet sound as far as "forthtelling" or speaking for "someone else"?
As the Bible is given to man to discover Jesus Christ, a prophet is one (as the apostles) that understands Jesus' complete fulfilment of every prophetic utterance in the OT and expounds to believers and unbelievers alike the Kingdom of God.

You might say, "Well, duh", but we have all heard people that prophesy about some incredible stuff...
"9/11 an inside job", "your wife will have blond hair", etc.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by stephenroehm

I agree that the point of any prophecy is to glorify God. The LORD used prophets in the OT and NT to glorify Him, to warn, to exhort, to stir up, to tell forth, to for tell, etc., and all for His glory.



Are you implying with this statement that prophets should not inspire shame in a person? Both rebuking sinners in the church openly (embarrassment) and inspiring conviction in the hearer inwardly (Godly sorrow worketh repentance, shame) are examples that were given in the OT and NT. There is no scriptural evidence to infer that He publicly embarrassed her by running and telling her sin, but it was obvious that she was taken aback and ashamed by Him calling out the sin that she had tried to hide in her heart. It's that shame that leads a person to repentance.

You worded that carefully. I would agree that conviction brings shame before it brings hope, and that shame is a normal human emotion.

However, this idea of rebuking sinners in the church openly to embarrass them is disgusting and not at all in the flow or stream of the teachings of Jesus.

Shame doesn't lead us to repentance. Grace does. Shame humiliates us, grace shows us a way out.

In the New Testament, Paul's writing on the subject of spiritual gifts, tongues and prophecy sandwich 1 Corinthians 13 (chapters 12 and 14). All spiritual gifts and leadership are bathed in this kind of love.

Jesus did come to make bad people good, but to make dead people live. If the Holy Spirit wishes to reveal the sin in a person's heart, the Spirit is doing so in love, not humiliation. The Spirit knows how to humble us without humiliating us. Often times these public shows of "calling out" are nothing more than stroking the ego of the so-called prophet. It's disgusting religiosity.

The only time someone was "called out" in the New Testament in front of the entire community was when the man had already called himself out, was involved in incest and continually boasted about this sexual relationship to the congregation. This was a unique situation. I'm troubled when people go to this situation as normalcy for Church Leadership. We don't find the heart of a matter on exceptional issues.

The woman was more taken aback because she perceived him to be a prophet. The miracle vindicated His claim to be the I AM. This is why she was excited. Her excitement did not come from humiliation. It came from the promise of eternal life and hope.