When do you believe Paul recieved the Holy Ghost?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

I agree Mike, Ananias would have never said he was there for him to be filled with the Holy Ghost if he already had been.

the poll does not suggest Paul already had been. It asks if he did at that moment or shortly after Ananias laid hands on him

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I believe Paul received the Holy Ghost when Ananias laid hands on him. And I believe he spoke with tongues. I do not think tongues had to be mentioned every time people received the Spirit and spoke in tongues.

Then what is the point of you saying it was future tense?

[wittenberg]

One should then know that there is a difference between the terms: Receiving the Holy Ghost (which happens when you receive Christ, for they are one) and being baptized in the Holy Ghost. The question I believe orginally was "When did Paul received the Holy Ghost?" Again, no one has answered this...If no man can call Jesus LORD but by the Holy Ghost, then we can assume that one must have the Holy Ghost to cry out: Lord (like the thief on the cross...who was filled with the Holy Ghost. For his eyes were opened and he by the Holy Ghost said: Lord!)

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Then what is the point of you saying it was future tense?

Where did Ananias speak in the future tense in verse 17?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Where did Ananias speak in the future tense in verse 17?

Acts 9:17 KJV And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 9:17 CEV Ananias left and went into the house where Saul was staying. Ananias placed his hands on him and said, "Saul, the Lord Jesus has sent me. He is the same one who appeared to you along the road. He wants you to be able to see and to be filled with the Holy Spirit."

Acts 9:17 Complete Apostles' Bible (17) And Ananias departed and entered the house; and putting his hands on him, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord has sent me, the One who appeared to you in the way which you were coming, so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit."

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by wittenberg

One should then know that there is a difference between the terms: Receiving the Holy Ghost (which happens when you receive Christ, for they are one) and being baptized in the Holy Ghost. The question I believe orginally was "When did Paul received the Holy Ghost?" Again, no one has answered this...If no man can call Jesus LORD but by the Holy Ghost, then we can assume that one must have the Holy Ghost to cry out: Lord (like the thief on the cross...who was filled with the Holy Ghost. For his eyes were opened and he by the Holy Ghost said: Lord!)

The verse you are quoting "no man can call Jesus Lord but by the Holy Spirit..." is in regard to the gifts of the Spirit. If someone is prophesying and in the prophecy they say that Jesus is Lord, then we know the Spirit speaking through them is the Holy Spirit and not a demon.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

There is no difference between receiving the Spirit and being baptized with the Spirit, imo. Can you show us the difference from the Bible? You might like to start with Acts 8.

Acts 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Acts 9:17 KJV And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 9:17 CEV Ananias left and went into the house where Saul was staying. Ananias placed his hands on him and said, "Saul, the Lord Jesus has sent me. He is the same one who appeared to you along the road. He wants you to be able to see and to be filled with the Holy Spirit."

Acts 9:17 Complete Apostles' Bible (17) And Ananias departed and entered the house; and putting his hands on him, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord has sent me, the One who appeared to you in the way which you were coming, so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit."

Those verbs are in the subjunctive mood.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by wittenberg

One should then know that there is a difference between the terms: Receiving the Holy Ghost (which happens when you receive Christ, for they are one) and being baptized in the Holy Ghost. The question I believe orginally was "When did Paul received the Holy Ghost?" Again, no one has answered this...If no man can call Jesus LORD but by the Holy Ghost, then we can assume that one must have the Holy Ghost to cry out: Lord (like the thief on the cross...who was filled with the Holy Ghost. For his eyes were opened and he by the Holy Ghost said: Lord!)

Received, filled, baptized with the Spirit all are one and the same experience. I will prove it.

BIBLICAL TERMS USED TO DESCRIBE THE EXPERIENCE OF ACTS 2:4

Let us examine whether or not one can "receive the Holy Ghost" before one is "baptized with the Holy Ghost". The experience in John 20:22 was explicitly stated by Jesus to be "Receive ye the Holy Ghost." The experience of Acts 2:4 was called the "baptism of the Holy GHost.

Acts 1:4-5 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

The promise of the Father was spoken earlier by Jesus as follows:

Luke 24:47-49 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

This occurred as follows:

Acts 2:1-4 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

According to Jesus words in Acts 1 and Acts 2, the experience of Acts 2:4 was receiving the promise, being baptized with the Holy Ghost and being filled with the Holy Ghost. All these three descriptions describe the experience of Acts 2:4. Those who believe Jesus gave the Holy Ghost to the disciples in John 20:22 believe this account in Acts 2:4 is a different experience than "receiving the Holy Ghost." In other words, the disciples already had received the Holy Ghost before they were baptized with the Holy Ghost, received the promise, and filled with the Holy Ghost.

So we see Acts 2:4's experience called:

• Receiving the promise of the Father (Acts 1:4).
• Being Baptized with the Holy Ghost (Acts 1:5).
• Being Filled with the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:4).

Now, remember, wittenberg said this is a second experience by those who feel one receives the Spirit automatically upon faith and repentance.

Jesus also said these words:

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:

So we can add these descriptions to the list of how this SECOND EXPERIENCE is termed as well.

• Receiving the power (Acts 1:8).
• Holy Ghost come upon people

Samaritans were water baptized but had not "received" the Spirit. So they sent for John and Peter:

Notice the terms used to describe what they had not yet experienced upon water baptism:

Acts 8:14-16 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Here is what occurred after the two apostles arrived.

Acts 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

That is the exact same terminology used when Jesus breathed on them:

John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

We also see another term used to describe this experience they did not have before and when they were water baptized:

Acts 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

So now we have a larger list of terms used for the alleged "second experience" that people who feel the Spirit indwells us before "baptism" experience.

• Receiving the promise of the Father (Acts 1:4).
• Baptized with the Holy Ghost (Acts 1:5).
• Receiving the power (Acts 1:8).
• Holy Ghost come upon people (Acts 1:8)
• Being filled with the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:4).
• Receiving the Holy Ghost (Acts 8:17).
• Having the Holy Ghost fall upon a person (Acts 8:16).

The conclusion that one "receives" the Holy Ghost as a first experience of the Spirit followed by a second experience of "receiving the Holy Ghost" is simply nonsensical. Note: The Bible called the alleged two experiences by the same term "receive the Holy Ghost". They are not two different experiences. they are one and the same experience.

ACTS 10 AND THE GENTILES

Acts 10:44-47 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

As the Gentiles heard Peter preach the Word, the gift of the Holy Ghost was "poured out" upon them. Peter said they RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST. This is what the "two experiences" proponents would term the "second experience". Peter later recounted his experience with the Gentiles in Acts Chapter 10, using these words:

Acts 11:15-17 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Again we see stated that "the falling of the Holy Ghost upon a person" is the same experience as being baptized with the Holy Ghost. And Peter called it the "like gift as he did unto us". In other words, that baptism of the Holy Ghost is the GIFT of the Holy Ghost mentioned in Acts 2:38. Peter said it was the "LIKE GIFT", or the "SAME GIFT."

Peter retold the same event of Acts 2 in Acts 15.

Acts 15:7-8 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

Notice the terms he used. He described this experience as "giving them the Holy Ghost." And we find that when God gave them the Holy Ghost, they spoke in tongues.

So again here are the terms used so far to be synonymous with the one and the same experience.

• Receiving the promise (Acts 1:4).
• Baptized with the Holy Ghost (Acts 1:5).
• Receiving the power (Acts 1:8).
• The Holy GHost came upon
• Being filled with the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:4).
• Receiving the Holy Ghost (Acts 8:17).
• Having the Holy Ghost fall upon you (Acts 8:16).
• Receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost (Acts 11:17; 2:38).
• Having the Holy Ghost poured out upon you (Acts 10:45) .
• Being GIVEN the Holy Ghost (Acts 15:8).

Look at point 6 especially. It is using the same terms as did Jesus in John 20:22.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Those verbs are in the subjunctive mood.

Right. And that is in anticipation of the object that is desired, not after that object is already obtained.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Then what is the point of you saying it was future tense?

Because Ananias had not yet laid his hands on Paul, to show Paul had not received the Spirit on the road to Damascus as wittenberg said.