Romans 2:6-11

[bbyrd009]

Kind of on topic, at least at this point; what is your view of a hierarchy in NJ? All saints equal or no?

[Jay]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Kind of on topic, at least at this point; what is your view of a hierarchy in NJ? All saints equal or no?

Jesus Christ is the only one in the entire kingdom whose position is actually going to mean anything.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Jay

Verse 11 is stating that God does not care about disability, ability, age, gender, nationality, name, social status, or any other measure that we base our opinions on. This includes how 'good' or misguided an individual is. Did He not say that all who do not come through Him and by His method were thieves and robbers, no matter what they claimed to have done in His name? There is only one way, given by the Apostle Peter by which we can be saved, and that is through repentance of sin, baptism in the name of Jesus, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by jfrog

The scripture says that God gives eternal life to those who continue in well doing and tribulation and anguish to those who do evil. Is this salvation by works?

I also wonder if verse 11 where it says "there is no respect of persons with god" also applies to those who simply believe on Jesus but continue to do evil and those who do not believe on Jesus but continue to do good...

Any thoughts?

The text reads:

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11For there is no respect of persons with God.

We will indeed be judged by our deeds. Even those who are saved in Christ Jesus will be judged according to their deeds and receive reward or suffer loss. Those who are not saved will certainly face judgment with eternal consequences. I'm going to focus in on those of us who are saved.

I believe that we are called to repent of sin and self and turn to Christ. We are to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and filled with the Holy Spirit. We are then to love God with all our hearts and love our neighbours as ourselves. If a man says he loves God and hates his neighbour, he is a liar. Because how can one love God whom he hasn't seen and hate his neighbour whom he has seen? Therefore, we demonstrate our love for God through an absolute agape love towards our neighbors. This love would bring with it sincere care for the individual's well being. We'd not lie about them, steal from them, commit adultery with their wives, covet what they have, etc. This love would also require us to be sensitive to the conscience of weaker brethren in matters such as eating meat sacrificed to idols, holiday customs, styles of dress, alcohol, forms of entertainment, etc. Therefore, through love, we obey the law. Those who lack love will be shown in the evil they commit to their neighbour, and neglect that they demonstrate towards seeking a relationship with God. It has nothing to do with the law... but rather love. A Spirit filled believer is to seek and manifest the fruit of the Spirit:

love
joy
peace
longsuffering
gentleness
goodness
faith
meekness
temperance

The problem with seeking to please God through purely obeying the law is... no one need to love their neighbour to obey rules. For example, I might choose not to steal from my neighbor... but it doesn't mean that I love them. Also, to live by law demands the question of "Which laws?" Sabbath laws? Dietary laws? Holiness purity laws of the OT? Dress codes? Hair standards? Head coverings? No television? No secular music? No internet? Etc. From this we get a mass of confusion from the law keepers bickering about which laws must be obeyed and which must not be obeyed. No one can give you a comprehensive list to obey. When I've asked for this list from many legalists on this forum... and they run, they don't respond, they don't offer anything of substance. Why? Because they know that if they put their list down... most will not agree... especially other legalists. lol

So yes, those who are not obedient to the gospel (Acts 2:38) and do not live a life of love, manifesting fruilt, will be cut off from the vine... to them... indignation and wrath.

Who can argue that one must obey the Gospel? Who can argue that there is a law against the fruit of the Spirit? Who can argue that we are not to love? This, as I see it, is an iron clad presentation of Christianity without man made religion and/or legalism.

[Aquila]

Many forget that we are not trying to keep laws... but rather we are trying to mortify the works of the flesh through surrender to the Spirit (repentance) and through Christlike love. The works of the flesh are (Galatians 5:19-21):

sexual immorality
impurity
sensuality,
idolatry
sorcery
enmity
strife
jealousy
fits of anger
rivalries
dissensions
divisions
envy
drunkenness
orgies
and things like these.

These are the natural impulses of the flesh, or carnal and sinful nature. Through repentance, partaking in the divine nature, and loving as Christ loved... we are to mortify these behaviors/desires. It has nothing to do with the law. In fact, Jesus is the standard. We are to seek to be like Him. When Christ alone is our standard... we rise above and beyond all that any law could command of us. We must be conformed into the image and likeness of Jesus... not live by laws.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

It is teaching the consistent New Testament message that one must overcome and do the will of God to attain final salvation. It is only contradictory to the false doctrine that one need not do the will of God to enter Heaven.

God's will according to both Grace and Legalism:

Grace: God's will is that we be conformed into the image of Jesus Christ through partaking in the divine nature.

Legalism: God's will is that we live by a code of laws and regulations to be consider holy through our efforts to follow the will of the Spirit.

So... as one can see "God's will" is the crux of the argument.

[Aquila]

The legalist struggles with the concept of spiritual transformation into the likeness of Jesus. Many legalists insist that one cannot be truly conformed into the likeness of Jesus, but rather God has ordained that man should keep various laws to be counted holy and saved. Some legalists insist that in order to become like Christ one must of their own effort and volition obey certain laws or holiness codes. Many choose Messianic holiness codes and are therefore conformed into the image of ancient Israel. Some choose the Ten Commandments, and again are conformed into the image of ancient Israel. Some choose church standards and are conformed into the image and likeness of their church or denomination. Some have personal standards and are thus conformed into the self made image of their own perceived righteousness. The truth is... only through cultivating spiritual oneness with Jesus Himself, and imaging Christ in one's heart and soul can one be conformed into the image of Jesus.

Grace emphasizes that the entire law/along with our old carnal identity was nailed to the cross in Christ. It's finished. Done. Now we must reckon ourselves crucified with Christ, but yet alive in that He is the very life living in us. We are now branches of the vine. We are now in union with Christ, one organism with Jesus. We have an imputed righteousness that we did not earn through this spiritual union with Jesus. It's His righteousness now flowing through us freely, though we do not deserve it. Now we live a life of sanctification. To the legalist sanctification is adherence to more and more codes and laws in order to increase in holiness. To the grace Christian sanctification is becoming more and more like Jesus Christ to increase the reality of HIS holiness in us.

So it all comes down to this...

-Be holy through being one with Jesus.
-Be holy through performance and adherence to various laws as stipulated by a given legalist.

Only one of the above is the will of the Father.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by HRea

The very definition of sin is transgression of divine law. It is what we do that decides our eternal fate. You will either commit sin or commit acts of righteousness. We are not all damned; but then again, we are not all heirs of eternal life. We will all be judged by God according to our own conduct.

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Paul begins Romans 2 by telling those that judge others, that they will also be judged. Just knowing right from wrong, righteousness from sin, is not enough. You must live it. And in living, you will conduct yourself in such a way as to demonstration to God whether you're saved or not.

Ezekiel 18:20-24
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

So that Paul's point is consistent with the teachings of the Apostles and Prophets: yes, you will be judged according to your deeds and conducts. We will all be judged according to the same judgment. And, the whole crux will come down to one very important question:

Were you obedience to the Word of God?

Sin is more than transgression of divine law. Sin is anything in our nature that is contrary to the nature of God. The law serves as a school master to help us grasp the basics as God related to Israel. But even the law is incomplete and imperfect on account of our flesh. For example, the law allowed polygamy. It even demanded that a brother marry his brother's wife to sire children in his brother's name should his brother perish without children... even if the living brother were already married. So in this circumstance... refusal to raise up children to their dead brother is a COMMAND from God. Onan was severely punished for violating this law. So... the law doesn't exactly express God's holiness. It govern's man's sinfulness. God is holier than the law. Jesus is holier than the law. We know polygamy isn't God's will and is against His very nature. So the law was "the stuff" before Jesus. But now that Jesus has come... the law is... eh... insufficient.

The Father's will isn't that you be like ancient Israel. The Father's will is that you be conformed into the image of Jesus through your union with Him.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

I think it is the difference in a Pharisee, lacking Grace/Love,
and those (rare) people that I am aware of,
who never go to church, wouldn't grasp or care about
our conditions for salvation,
yet I cannot imagine in hell.
Ghandi, etc.

Christ alone is Ghandi's judge. Sadly, Ghandi was more like Jesus than most of us. lol

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Wouldn't the gist of these verses be that we have to couple action to our obedience? If you say you believe but will not obey Jesus you are not a real believer.

One can "obey Jesus" and not be a true believer.