Essential Goal of Christianity???

[Aquila]

God became man... that man might become God.

Not that a man might become "a god"... but that man as a whole might become so full of God that we lose our identity and spiritual individuality in Him. God desires to be the all in all.

Christianity is therefore the hope of restored relationship with God through atonement.
Christianity is the hope of becoming united with God, one spirit, with the Lord through the Holy Spirit.
Christianity is God taking on humanity to elevate humanity into the divine essence.
Christianity is the hope of becoming one with God, and thereby fully realizing our place in Christ as sons and daughters of God.
Christianity is the realization of God flowing through us to manifest Himself in us.
Christianity is realizing that we are all but branches of the True Vine (Jesus Christ)... the church is one organism with God through Christ.

Therefore, our "holiness" emanates from the Father who dwells within us... it is not based on behavior. It's based on our state of being. We are holy as we surrender to allowing Him to manifest Himself in us... conforming us into the very image and likeness of Jesus Himself.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

not sure what you mean by the bolded. how were people "one of his" between 325 A.D. and 1901 when there is not a single shred of evidence that people were "filled with God's spirit" in the modern pentecostal sense? so gandhi, martin luther king, dorothy day, and mother teresa are burning in hell because they are not upc?

I have no idea who was filled with the Spirit and who wasn't in the centuries when nothing was recorded (and neither do you), but I have faith that God knows who His people are. Being one of His has nothing to do with being "UPC", and it's asinine to characterize scriptural principles and commandments in that manner.

I also have faith that God is merciful to people who were/are sincere but ignorant of scripture, and as far as believers are concerned, God is their final judge. But unbelievers? Are you trying to say that unbelievers can be saved through good works? It's a kind thought, but not in keeping with the Word of God.

John 8:24 "...if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins."

can you explain what exactly are we to obey when you say "love is perfected through obedience"?

His word and commandments.

I John 2:3-5

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected:hereby know we that we are in him."

to pursue love and abide in love and do love is to obey and "walk after the spirit". what else is there?

No, not exactly, because people have their own ideas about what "love" is, and our flesh will eventually corrupt whatever goodness we attempt. You can't flip it around. You follow after the Spirit, and the lusts of the flesh will be squelched in your life and the fruits of the Spirit will follow--which includes the love of God. If you try to *manually* produce the fruits of the Spirit in your life without including God in the equation, you will fall flat on your face.

It seems that you've equated good works with godliness and salvation and that is anti-scriptural. Sorry, Charlie, but good works don't save you.

[Aquila]

Behold, I show you a mystery...

1 John 2:2 (ESV)
He (Jesus) is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

[Dedicated Mind]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I have no idea who was filled with the Spirit and who wasn't in the centuries when nothing was recorded (and neither do you), but I have faith that God knows who His people are. Being one of His has nothing to do with being "UPC", and it's asinine to characterize scriptural principles and commandments in that manner.

I also have faith that God is merciful to people who were/are sincere but ignorant of scripture, and as far as believers are concerned, God is their final judge. But unbelievers? Are you trying to say that unbelievers can be saved through good works? It's a kind thought, but not in keeping with the Word of God.

John 8:24 "...if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins."



His word and commandments.

I John 2:3-5

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected:hereby know we that we are in him."



No, not exactly, because people have their own ideas about what "love" is, and our flesh will eventually corrupt whatever goodness we attempt. You can't flip it around. You follow after the Spirit, and the lusts of the flesh will be squelched in your life and the fruits of the Spirit will follow--which includes the love of God. If you try to *manually* produce the fruits of the Spirit in your life without including God in the equation, you will fall flat on your face.

It seems that you've equated good works with godliness and salvation and that is anti-scriptural. Sorry, Charlie, but good works don't save you.

who is talking about manually producing good works as a means of salvation? i said the essence of christianity is to produce the love nature of christ in us. obviously if i said the love nature of christ, i am referring to the biblical definition of love.it is also evident that people like ghandhi, martin luther king, dorothy day and mother teresa expressed the biblical definition of love and that they did it as an expression of the spirit of God that is resident in every human because god is resident in every human and because god is love therefore those people expressed the spirit of god without ever having been baptized in jesus name or spoken in tongues. good works as an expression of god's spirit of love residing in you does save you according to matthew 25 and 1cor 13.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

who is talking about manually producing good works as a means of salvation? i said the essence of christianity is to produce the love nature of christ in us. obviously if i said the love nature of christ, i am referring to the biblical definition of love.it is also evident that people like ghandhi, martin luther king, dorothy day and mother teresa expressed the biblical definition of love and that they did it as an expression of the spirit of God that is resident in every human because god is resident in every human and because god is love therefore those people expressed the spirit of god without ever having been baptized in jesus name or spoken in tongues. good works as an expression of god's spirit of love residing in you does save you according to matthew 25 and 1cor 13.

So you believe all human beings are already filled with God's Spirit?

[Dedicated Mind]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

So you believe all human beings are already filled with God's Spirit?

not sure what you mean to imply with that question. god breathed into adam and man became a living soul. every man has a conscience of right and wrong at his essence. john 1 says that the word is the light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world. in him we live and move and have our being. yes god is present in every human. that does not mean that every human has the holy ghost. i am pentecostal. i have received the hg and spoken in tongues but i really don't understand what is the qualitative difference between someone who has the holy ghost and someone who doesn't. the hg leads, teaches, comforts, assures of salvation; but i still feel human with passion, desire and emotion. I don't feel super power, super spiritual, superior knowledge or insight unless the hg is leading me through intention, desire and passion to study and learn. maybe you can tell me how you think your life is different from a non holy ghost christian? even with that said, god can be leading, guiding non holyghost christians and all people with a sincere heart, wanting to do right.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

historical/conservative christianity has attempted to achieve righteousness by means of human will and effort instead of pursuing the spirit of love and allowing righteousness to flow from the spirit of love.

Pursuing the spirit of love and allowing righteousness to flow from the spirit of love is an act of 'human will and effort'.

God's 'goal' is to have a people who express his nature and character for eternity. Man messed up, so therefore God redeems man, transforms him by his power. The transformation is not yet complete (and will not be complete until Judgement Day. And the transformation of man is itself only the beginning of God's purposes for mankind.

God is not interested in any 'evolution of man's consciousness' or any such thing. There is no evolution about it. There is transformation. It is abrupt and sudden - conversion is an abrupt, sudden, 'crisis experience'. Regeneration is an abrupt, sudden 'crisis experience'. Resurrection will most definitely be an 'abrupt, sudden, crisis experience'. And Judgement Day will without question be an abrupt, sudden, crisis experience for all mankind.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

not sure what you mean to imply with that question...

I'm not implying anything. I'm asking for clarification, because you stated: "...an expression of the spirit of God that is resident in every human because god is resident in every human and because god is love therefore those people expressed the spirit of god without ever having been baptized in jesus name or spoken in tongues. good works as an expression of god's spirit of love residing in you does save you...."

Your statement implies that every human being is already filled with the Spirit of God, and that when they express God's "spirit of love" through good works, it does save them. I'm asking if I'm understanding you correctly. Is that what you're saying?

god breathed into adam and man became a living soul. every man has a conscience of right and wrong at his essence. john 1 says that the word is the light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world. in him we live and move and have our being. yes god is present in every human. that does not mean that every human has the holy ghost. i am pentecostal. i have received the hg and spoken in tongues but i really don't understand what is the qualitative difference between someone who has the holy ghost and someone who doesn't. the hg leads, teaches, comforts, assures of salvation; but i still feel human with passion, desire and emotion. I don't feel super power, super spiritual, superior knowledge or insight unless the hg is leading me through intention, desire and passion to study and learn. maybe you can tell me how you think your life is different from a non holy ghost christian? even with that said, god can be leading, guiding non holyghost christians and all people with a sincere heart, wanting to do right.

So you believe that God's Spirit and the Holy Ghost are two different spirits?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

obviously if i said the love nature of christ, i am referring to the biblical definition of love.it is also evident that people like ghandhi, martin luther king, dorothy day and mother teresa expressed the biblical definition of love and that they did it as an expression of the spirit of God that is resident in every human ...

They did not have the Spirit of Christ and they did not express the biblical definition of love. Here is how we know if anyone loves God -

Deu 11:1
Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.

Deu 30:16
In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Jhn 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Jhn 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

1Jo 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.


2Jo 1:6
And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

[Dedicated Mind]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I'm not implying anything. I'm asking for clarification, because you stated: "...an expression of the spirit of God that is resident in every human because god is resident in every human and because god is love therefore those people expressed the spirit of god without ever having been baptized in jesus name or spoken in tongues. good works as an expression of god's spirit of love residing in you does save you...."

Your statement implies that every human being is already filled with the Spirit of God, and that when they express God's "spirit of love" through good works, it does save them. I'm asking if I'm understanding you correctly. Is that what you're saying?



So you believe that God's Spirit and the Holy Ghost are two different spirits?

Is this a trick question? LOL We are on an apostolic forum. the holy ghost is a distinct soulish manifestation of God's spirit which is also the presence/ghost/soul of christ.

don't dodge the question. how is your life experience qualitatively different, with the holy ghost, from another sincere christian who does not have the holy ghost? i'm really interested.