Beginning Water & Spirit Doctrine

[Disciple4life]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

If Jesus' earthly ministry did not begin until he was baptized in water, with the Holy Spirit baptism descending upon Him, then why should we think it would be any different for us as believers?

I am not saying it should be any different for us.

I don't believe this is basing everything on "one scripture". There are a multitude of scriptures to correlate together that Jesus himself was baptized in water, and received the Holy Spirit. There are multiple scriptures that show that baptism in water took place, and that infilling of the spirit also took place in believers throughout the NT.

So if there is multiple scriptures (which there is) we shouldn't only use John 3.

I do believe that the evidence of the infilling of the spirit should not rest only in "tongues", but ALSO in the fruit of the spirit. Tongues can and mostly are a sign of the indwelling of the spirit in one's life, but the fruit of the spirit remain the real test as to whether a life has the spirit indwelling it.... or not.

One of my points is if you are going to preach baptism of water and spirit there are better scriptures to do it than John 3.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Disciple4life

One of my points is if you are going to preach baptism of water and spirit there are better scriptures to do it than John 3.

OK, I see your point. I have heard many and various scriptures used to teach baptism of water and spirit.

For me, the most effective answer for all questions I had regarding the subject was to see the reality of the picture of Jesus being water baptized, and receiving the Holy Spirit BEFORE beginning his earthly ministry. That picture, to me, spoke much louder than all the culmination of scriptures that can be taken one way or another.

[Disciple4life]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Looking at the physical example of how Jesus was water baptized, and then received the baptism of the Holy Spirit before his earthly ministry begins, is a very clear picture of how it is for the believer also, without trying to read more or less into it through various scriptures.

If water baptism isn't necessary, why was Jesus baptized by John?
If spirit baptism isn't necessary, then for what purpose did the Holy Spirit descend on Jesus?


In all reality, the act of Jesus being baptized, and the Holy Spirit descending upon him, correlating to the beginning of his earthly ministry, paints a very clear picture for the rest of believers to follow.

What the bible says-
Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Pentecostals read it like this-
Except a man be baptized in water and of the Spirit, he connot go to Heaven.

OP take great liberties to insert and decipher where they want with this scripture.

No need to do this. Preach Acts 2:38. Preach Acts 1:4-5.

[justlookin]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Looking at the physical example of how Jesus was water baptized, and then received the baptism of the Holy Spirit before his earthly ministry begins, is a very clear picture of how it is for the believer also, without trying to read more or less into it through various scriptures.

If water baptism isn't necessary, why was Jesus baptized by John?
If spirit baptism isn't necessary, then for what purpose did the Holy Spirit descend on Jesus?


In all reality, the act of Jesus being baptized, and the Holy Spirit descending upon him, correlating to the beginning of his earthly ministry, paints a very clear picture for the rest of believers to follow.

If we wish to use Jesus as a model, the question becomes was Jesus a child of God before His baptism and the Spirit descending on Him? The second question is does the Spirit birth a child of God in the sense of "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit?

Both legitimate questions.

[RJR]

Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

Acts 2:38, John 3:5, Luke 24:47,49, ...

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by justlookin

If we wish to use Jesus as a model, the question becomes was Jesus a child of God before His baptism and the Spirit descending on Him?

Of course He was. It was just that his earthly ministry didn't begin until after he was baptized.

Originally Posted by justlookin

The second question is does the Spirit birth a child of God in the sense of "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit?

Both legitimate questions.

Yes, I believe so.

[justlookin]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Of course He was. It was just that his earthly ministry didn't begin until after he was baptized.



Yes, I believe so.

We agree.