Wayne Grudem-Trinitarian Madness

[Jason B]

Recently a trinitarian friend prayed for me/with me. He began praying "Father,..." as he prayed he said "and we thank you for giving your life for us.....in Your name we pray". (I've experienced similar things many times)

I think a lot of trinitarians are so simply because they don't know what oneness is, or seminarian trinitarians have poisoned the well against oneness theology. Nevertheless the average untrained trinitarian believes something similar to oneness. In fact that is what Calvin Beisner laments in the opening chapter of his book "God in Three Persons".

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Recently a trinitarian friend prayed for me/with me. He began praying "Father,..." as he prayed he said "and we thank you for giving your life for us.....in Your name we pray". (I've experienced similar things many times)

I think a lot of trinitarians are so simply because they don't know what oneness is, or seminarian trinitarians have poisoned the well against oneness theology. Nevertheless the average untrained trinitarian believes something similar to oneness. In fact that is what Calvin Beisner laments in the opening chapter of his book "God in Three Persons".

Right. In fact, Beisner also said in that same book that the trinity is not laid out whatsoever in teaching form in the New Testament. Hello? Wake up, Beisner.

[houston]

Jason. Your hand has 4 fingers and a thumb. You can move each separately, but they function together as one hand.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by houston

Jason. Your hand has 4 fingers and a thumb. You can move each separately, but they function together as one hand.

Interesting. I've never heard that analogy.

However each finger does not have its own consciousness, will, and personality.

I've not heard the Trinity compared to fingers before, but I have heard it compared to "three men who all share the same (human) nature."

But Bro. Houston, you're good with me. I'm not trying to be insulting in anyway, we both share some similar views on other doctrines, I'm just wanting to know from your POV how trinitarianism makes more sense than oneness, especially in regard to the Grudem quotes I posted.

[houston]

Bro. Houston? LOL. I haven't been called "brother" in a long time. I agree that some trinitarians can sound like tritheists. For the majority of my interaction with them, most do not. For me the trinity makes more sense than oneness. The docrine of the trinity doesn't try to do away with the distinctions of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit that are used in the scripture. People fuss that the trinity isn't found in the OT. This coming from a group that believes in progressive revelation, when it's convenient.

My issue (one of them) with oneness is that every preacher I heard "teach" it paints a charicature of trinitarians, attacks it, and then goes out of their way to get around the use of biblical terminology and examples, like Paul's greetings, and Jesus praying to the Father, etc.

That, and my pastor preached something like Nestorianism.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by houston

Bro. Houston? LOL. I haven't been called "brother" in a long time.I agree that some trinitarians can sound like tritheists. For the majority of my interaction with them, most do not.

I find this mostly agreeable. It is the more religiously trained ones that tend to be tritheistic sounding at times. I personally doubt many are actual tritheists, just simply mistaken about the nature of the incarnation.

Originally Posted by houston

For me the trinity makes more sense than oneness. The doctrine of the trinity doesn't try to do away with the distinctions of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit that are used in the scripture.

Ok, agreed. I don't see how oneness does this either. I would assert that within trinitarianism they draw the distinctions so sharply that borderline tritheism is the result.

For example (I've shared this here before), a couple years ago I looked forward to hearing John MacArthur speak in a nearby city. I was disappointed that his message was titled "Worshiping the Holy Spirit" and he spent close to an hour talking about how the church rightly glorifies the Father and the Son but has forgotten about the Holy Spirit. He complained that very few hymns were written to/about the Holy Spirit. And basically said the Holy Spirit was being left out by the modern church.

I don't get that. If you only have one God, how can you worship Him, and yet NOT worship Him. For all the distinctions that need to be made, I've always believed that whether we address God in prayer as "Father, Lord Jesus, or even Holy Spirit" we are coming before the same Throne of Grace.
If we sing "Welcome Holy Spirit" I don't think we are saying "Father and Son wait outside". If we sing "O how I love Jesus" I don't think the Holy Spirit's feelings are hurt. I understand the need for distinction, but I see (as a oneness believer) distinctions in office or "modes" (I know its a maligned word) or "manifestations" but not such a division of person that when we pray a standard prayer "Our Father which art in heaven" that the "other two persons" (in a trinitarian view) are not being addressed. Just like Acts 7 Stephen called on God saying "Lord Jesus". I don't think we read that and say he only called on the Son, but not the Father or the Spirit. I just don't see how we can truly say we believe in one God, but make such strong distinctions that for all practical purposes the end result is tritheism. That's what I've found, and many of the guys I enjoy listening to/reading the most are like that. Typically Reformed/Calvinist types that are very Biblically conservative. I like their stuff but they lose me on the godhead. Not because I can't understand, but because I'm not buying it.

Originally Posted by houston

My issue (one of them) with oneness is that every preacher I heard "teach" it paints a charicature of trinitarians, attacks it, and then goes out of their way to get around the use of biblical terminology and examples, like Paul's greetings, and Jesus praying to the Father, etc.

I see. But does that change the truth of God? Many Christians have been absolutely terrible witnesses for Christ and Christianity, especially during the dark ages, and even the Reformation. Does that justify the heathen, muslim, and Jew in their rejection of Jesus Christ or the gospel. I agree with you that oneness people have attacked trinitarians as if they were of the debbil, and I think thats wrong. To me I think it is really backlash to being booted from the Assemblies of God. Prior to that the oneness folks didn't seem to mind fellowshipping trinitarians. However in much the same way Trinitarians have put oneness people in the same category with JW's and Mormons, which is just as inaccurate as saying all trinitarians worship 3 gods.

Originally Posted by houston

That, and my pastor preached something like Nestorianism.

That can be a doozie. Bad oneness teaching. Oneness like trinitariansism has its share of novel interpretations.

I appreciate your response, but I can't really see why you prefer trinitarianism over oneness except that you feel it makes a better distinction between the Father, Son, and Spirit. I'm not trying to change you mind as to me this is not a salvation issue (hear all the OPs gasp). However I'm just trying to understand why someone who has been familiar with oneness would switch to trinitarinism, especially in reference to the Grudem quotes. So I'll ask you a more direct question. Does your current view of the godhead agree with the type of theology Grudem puts forth in the quotes in the opening post? Or do you think those are problematic and inconsistent with the scriptures?

[houston]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

I appreciate your response, but I can't really see why you prefer trinitarianism over oneness except that you feel it makes a better distinction between the Father, Son, and Spirit. I'm not trying to change you mind as to me this is not a salvation issue (hear all the OPs gasp). However I'm just trying to understand why someone who has been familiar with oneness would switch to trinitarinism, especially in reference to the Grudem quotes. So I'll ask you a more direct question. Does your current view of the godhead agree with the type of theology Grudem puts forth in the quotes in the opening post? Or do you think those are problematic and inconsistent with the scriptures?

Trinitarianism makes THE distinction between Father, Son, and Holy Sp... Holy Ghost. I was never ok with pastors, teachers, and preachers shying away from biblical terminology. Red flags were everywhere, but I hung around the OP camp for well over a decade.

I have no issue with the Grudem quotes as they stand. When/if I reach that point in Systematic Theology I'll have a better idea of the context.

(This isn't "he left OP and is spiteful." Many things didn't agree with me from the get-go.)

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by houston

Trinitarianism makes THE distinction between Father, Son, and Holy Sp... Holy Ghost.

So does Oneness. The issue is about what that distinction is.

http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/ugstsymposium.htm

[Luke]

As a trinitarian I do not see the doctrine of trinity vrs oneness asa a salvational issue. I agree with those who have stated that the Godhead can be a hard issue to fully grasp. That being said I do hold firmly to a trinitarian belief.

[houston]

Originally Posted by Luke

As a trinitarian I do not see the doctrine of trinity vrs oneness asa a salvational issue. I agree with those who have stated that the Godhead can be a hard issue to fully grasp. That being said I do hold firmly to a trinitarian belief.

Really? I consider most OP's to be in a cult.