A Picture of Grace from God's Point of View

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to God but by Him.

If you try to come to God any other way than Jesus, you can't get to God.

Imo Christ works better, and He is a Spirit, that Jesus manifested. Did Christ go to prepare a place for us, Christians? Yes--but there were already many rooms in God's house. If not, He would have told us. We likely understand the dynamic much too literally; if my Muslim neighbor exhibits the fruit of the Spirit, especially toward me, then what matter if our words are not the exact same? Any spirit that admits that Christ has come in the flesh is from God.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

So which are the Muslims who are saved?

Maybe DB can tell us?

it isn't a puzzle, imo; you will know them by their fruit. Contrast this with our current requirements for considering someone "saved;" verbal bona-fides.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by shazeep

it isn't a puzzle, imo; you will know them by their fruit. Contrast this with our current requirements for considering someone "saved;" verbal bona-fides.

[Esaias]

Gobble gobble!

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by shazeep

it isn't a puzzle, imo; you will know them by their fruit. Contrast this with our current requirements for considering someone "saved;" verbal bona-fides.

To be saved, one must believe that God raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 10:9).

Muslims universally believe Allah saved Isa from death by assuming Him bodily into heaven.

Qu'ran sura 4 (An-Nisa) ayat 157-158,

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself...

These would appear contradictory?

If Romans 10:9 is true and reliable and gives us the ability to establish correct salvation doctrine, then we must either admit a contradiction in the Scriptures, or realize that knowing someone by their fruit is not the litmus test of whether or not they saved.

Did not John say that those who do not believe in the name of the Son of God have the wrath of God abiding upon them (John 3:36)?

So, here, it's not about actions and behaviors, but about a fundamental inner conviction.

Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist that denies the Father and the Son.

Compare the above to this:

[18.4] And warn those who say: Allah has taken a son.
[18.5] They have no knowledge of it, nor had their fathers; a grievous word it is that comes out of their mouths; they speak nothing but a lie.

and this:

[23.91] Never did Allah take to Himself a son...

and this:

[9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
[9.31] They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah son of Marium...

(You can look up these Qu'ranic verses here: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html)

Therefore, the statements in the Bible and the Quran cannot both be true at the same time. Saying God has no Son and that the Messiah is not Lord is tantamount to a confession that will lead all, Biblically speaking, to damnation, or else the Bible isn't reliable and trustworthy when it comes to establishing salvation doctrine.

So again, it's not about one's fruit. It's about fundamental convictions, held inwardly.

[shazeep]

yes, look, i'm not going to get into that legalistic jazz; God judges a person's heart, and you cannot hide your heart from God. If you choose to divide it Christian/Muslim arbitrarily then that is your choice, but you are denying Scripture to do so.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by shazeep

yes, look, i'm not going to get into that legalistic jazz; God judges a person's heart, and you cannot hide your heart from God. If you choose to divide it Christian/Muslim arbitrarily then that is your choice, but you are denying Scripture to do so.

Romans 10:9-10,

9. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This, too, is part of the heart of all men that God will judge. There is nothing legalistic about an inward conviction. Legalism is the making use of the laws and rules to obtain salvation apart from faith in the Son of God.

It would be a strange Muslim indeed that confessed Jesus is Lord, that He is the Son of God, and that God raised Him from the dead.

[houston]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Gobble gobble!

Easier to understand than some posts...

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Romans 10:9-10,

It would be a strange Muslim indeed that confessed Jesus is Lord, that He is the Son of God, and that God raised Him from the dead.

Much less trust in Jesus for forgiveness of sins. Muslims are legalists. The five pillars of Islam secures salvation. All religions are works-based, except The Way.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Romans 10:9-10,



This, too, is part of the heart of all men that God will judge. There is nothing legalistic about an inward conviction. Legalism is the making use of the laws and rules to obtain salvation apart from faith in the Son of God.

It would be a strange Muslim indeed that confessed Jesus is Lord, that He is the Son of God, and that God raised Him from the dead.

yes, but you are requiring your definitions there, naturally, as they are the ones provided to you, and they seem correct. "Wonderful Counselor" is disallowed as an understanding of Christ in this model; and, it is assumed that all men will be judged the same way, when there is a sense in which this is not true. God does not consult with OPs, nor anyone else, in judging a man or a matter.

We can find Scripture to condemn Job, or even Solomon, so using the Bible in this way is not only demonstrably arbitrary, but a sign.

Muslims are required to emulate Christ, not just talk about Him as in our religion. The only Muslims going around talking about how others are lost are the radical, fake ones.

It would be a strange Christian indeed that refrained from legalistic verbal declarations about Christ, and requiring them as proof of "salvation," which is in fact what we are taught to do, whether that is what you might want to admit or not; a "Christian" conversation might easily go
"Are they saved?"
"Yes, they accepted Jesus and spoke in tongues on such-and-such a date."
"Oh, okay then."
And i can tell you with confidence that if you are in this church, you should run, as fast as you can. Does this mean that they are all "lost?" Of course not; just like anyone, any Muslim, they may choose a different understanding from that of the herd they are in; they will be the quiet ones.

So hold to your convictions--about other people, lol--for as long as you like. "Prove" them with some convenient Scripture, should you be so inclined, ignoring other Scripture that gives a more complete understanding. Lots of people do. But people also change--and if they are truly changing their minds, they cannot help it; you will not be unaffected from now on whenever you hear someone declare their "bona-fides," or repeat someone else's, as a reply to "are you saved." You might stuff it, true, but it will be there.

Anyone who tells you that you are saved or that they are saved is lying to you, and contravening Scripture. He who holds out to the end is saved.