Those who never heard about Jesus? - Page 3

shazeep · #21 08-15-2016, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jito463

Well, I would put forth that He has done this, but not everyone has received it.

amen, and i have to believe that many who are receptive are deterred some kind of way, many different ways, whatever way might possibly work.

shazeep · #22 08-15-2016, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Well I personally leave what to do with those who never heard the gospel to the wisdom and judgement of God.

I do not feel it is my place or anyone place to judge others' eternal destiny.

i knew you weren't a bad guy

i might suggest that one reflect upon where they got what they understand to be "Gospel," how was the concept introduced to them iow, and speaking generally i would say that one should be very skeptical of models they have been invited into by other people, as you are skeptical. Especially, and with all due respect, if quoting Jesus appears to conflict with that model.

mfblume · #23 08-15-2016, 08:14 AM

The issue is not one of bad people or good people. Whatever the answer is, it's not a bad or good answer. We should be contrasting correct from incorrect. That's all. This is where the principle of the world affects people so much. What people do not WANT to believe is what they consider bad. The world cannot conceive of a genuine love for sinners, so it says there is only hatred if one points at sin.

Stephen pointed at his own murderers, and called them wicked and sinful. Was he a bad guy? Keep reading Acts 7. He asked God to forgive his own murderers while they were murdering him!

On the flipside, Jesus told the adulterous woman who was thrown at his feet that he would not condemn her. But he told her to stop sinning. Did he hate her?

Here we have someone pointing his finger and telling people they're sinners, and he forgives them while he's dying at their hands. Then we have someone saying he does not condemn her, and then tells her to stop sinning.

The sin and the forgiveness might have been introduced in each case at opposite times compared to the point of sin, but in each case sin was stated in no uncertain terms, and forgiveness was there. This shows God really does LOVE PEOPLE WHILE HE POINTS AT THEM AND SAYS THEY'RE SINNERS.

Since the world, and those in the church with that same spirit of the world, cannot conceive of such a thing, they think a person is BAD if they point to sin. They think it is HATE if they point at sin. That is because they cannot love people while they are in sin, because their love is not that great.

So, I think we need to keep in mind that there is a love that extends to people while they're in sin, that does not require the sinner to be cleaned up first before it is real and genuine love.

Those who think hatred is all there is when sin is pointed out cannot love people while they're in sin. So, they imagine there is no sin, in some way and somehow. THEN they can love.

shazeep · #24 08-15-2016, 08:20 AM

my knee-jerk response is that those people were caught in an ACT, and were doing evil, which might be contrasted with the more repressive regime of seeking sin where there may be none, possibly. i'll be back tho

mfblume · #25 08-15-2016, 08:36 AM

There is a genuine love for people in sin. Everyone is born a sinner. And Jesus associated forgiveness for those in sin by accusing them of it and then dying for them to show his love for them. This cannot be believed by the world.

In Adam all die. But In Christ shall all be made alive. How do we get into Christ? We have to leave Adam. And birth got us into Adam and death gets us out. We die with Christ and thereby leave Adam, and enter in to Christ. So, all not in Christ are in Adam and will die.

Overall, the issue is it is not hate to point at sin. Hate is pointing at it and not being willing to do good to the same person despite the sin. Pointing at the sin in itself is not hate. The world thinks it is, but that's because the world cannot conceive of LOVE FOR GENUINE SINNERS. That is why they call the crucifixion a myth. They cannot conceive of that kind of love.

So, when the world and those of its spirit see sin pointed out in it, they can only interpret it as hate.

So, if someone is not baptized into Christ's death, they are in sin. They may be good people and do good things. But salvation is not base don good works. It is based on inclusion into Christ in His death. For that reason, EVERYTHING else as a means to salvation is salvation by works. EVERYTHING else is based on what WE CAN DO to redeem ourselves-- salvation by works.

shazeep · #26 08-15-2016, 08:58 AM

And Jesus associated forgiveness for those in sin by accusing them of it

an examination of these specific accusations might illuminate a different theme, i suggest we explore that.

mfblume · #27 08-15-2016, 08:59 AM

Paul laid out THE GOSPEL he preached:

1Co 15:1-4....Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; ..(2)....By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. ..(3)....For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; ..(4)....And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

It's all he preached.

1Co 2:2....For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

And knowing his gospel was the death, burial and resurrection, we then understand what he meant by GOSPEL in these passages:

Gal 1:7-9....Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. ..(8)....But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. ..(9)....As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

That is like saying...

Gal 1:7-9....Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert Christ's death for our sins according to the scriptures; ..And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures..(8)....But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach anything other than Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; ..And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. ..(9)....As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach anything other than that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; ..And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Peter referred to the same gospel.

The question posed in the forum asks what Peter asked:

1Pe 4:17....For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Paul gave the answer:

2Th 1:7-10....And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, ..(8)....In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: ..(9)....Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; ..(10)....When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Insert these words where you read GOSPEL:

...I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; ..And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

For that is what Paul said the gospel was.

That is not hatred. It's love. Love of the cross. Dying for people WHILE THEY ARE SINNERS. That's not satan. That's God. Loving them WHILE THEY ARE SINNERS. It's not love to have to remove the concept of sinners from the equation. That's PHILEO, not AGAPE.

shazeep · #28 08-15-2016, 09:05 AM

That is why they call the crucifixion a myth

i believe you leap to a conclusion here possibly, and suggest that i have never encountered someone in the US who denies the crucifixion, unless they are Jewish, and they get a pass on that, huh? Of course these people do exist, and you seek to tie this phrase to Muslims, who are told by their Book to follow Christ or be doomed, yet stand condemned by you, when Jews have no desire for Christ, but get a pass.

mfblume · #29 08-15-2016, 09:07 AM

Hyper dispensationalism teaches that Israel need not accept Jesus because they have law. Hagee said there has never been more of a waste of time than evangelizing Jews for Jesus. That's a severe falsity. He said Jesus never came to be Messiah for the Jews. He said Jesus was not crucified for claiming to be Messiah, for, he reasoned, how can you be crucified for something you never came to be? He said Jesus was crucified by Rome as a political insurrectionist.

He retracted that statement quickly after uproar took place throughout christendom. So he changed his book that stated this to instead say Jesus came as a SUFFERING MESSIAH, not RULING MESSIAH.

Here is the original version of his presentation:

https://vimeo.com/33784563

NOBODY gets a pass for rejecting the cross. NOBODY.

--

Act 8:35....Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Act 8:36....And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Act 8:37....And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Act 8:38....And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Act 2:41....Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

As soon as they heard the word.... BAPTISM! No time for fruit except repentance. And baptism is the work that substantiates faith.

shazeep · #30 08-15-2016, 09:11 AM

So, when the world and those of its spirit see sin pointed out in it, they can only interpret it as hate.

yes, and when i point out some sin here, everyone just feels the love flowing, huh. That's why it took 3 months to get an answer to 'how does that make you feel?' @ 'you are lost,' and the closest we could get was 'curious,' iow still refusing to deal with the actual question, way past even the place where the point has become obvious, and instead inferring or demanding that some proof needs to be presented first.