You not preaching holiness till you've named it!

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

God Said "But every woman shall borrow of her neighbour, and of her that sojourneth in her house, jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment: and ye shall put them upon your sons, and upon your daughters".

So God would command his people to load up with sinful things?

Those treasures were supposed to be for the tabernacle. Much of it became a golden calf and that doesn't strengthen anyone's case for wearing jewelry. Adorning in jewels is vain and does nothing, but bring extra attention to the flesh. If a person really asks themselves the question, "why am I wearing this?" I think it is pretty clear as to whether we should wear jewelry or not. I personally don't make it a heaven or hell issue, but I too like Paul express how we should adorn ourselves. We should not draw attention to the outside only to cause others to covet or esteem us, but we should let the inward man be revealed which brings glory to God.

Exodus 33:5 For the Lord had said unto Moses, Say unto the children of Israel, Ye are a stiffnecked people:I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment, and consume thee:therefore now put off thy ornaments from thee, that I may know what to do unto thee.

I think the Old Testament references to God adorning Israel in Jewels where merely pointing out the blessings of God in their prosperity. If God blessed Israel with the wealth and abilities to possess jewels it is God who should receive the credit for his blessing, but does not prove that was still Gods' perfect will. Instead, it was only the normalcy of the nations of the world much like today. Thanks be to God that we are not like the nations of the world.

By God's command for the people Israel to remove their jewels IMO it could be implied that God was not pleased with it. Those jewels seem to have been a symbol of Israel's pride in the eyes of God.Personally I do not want to emulate the nation of Israel we must note that they are backslid from God. We are a chosen nation and a pecular people who should bring praises to God. I don't make this out to be a heaven or hell issue, but I am not sure that it is not. Why do Christians insist on the wearing of jewelry?

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by mfblume

It's speaking of a woman's focus, not just using those things.

Why would a sinful thing be allowed on a wedding day and no other time?

Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
(1 Peter 3:1-5 KJV)

I think that is a liberal way of interpreting this passage. I understand your point and it is a valid point, but still is a liberal interpretation. Paul literally said to not let your outward adorning be a certain way, but yet people read this deeper meaning than what the text actually says. I am not saying you are wrong, but wouldn't you want to error on the safe side. My question again is why do people want to wear jewelry.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Brother, I understand what you are saying. BUT - always a but - not trying to be a butt, but... - 'holiness' is something we as a movement have grossly misunderstood. We have to get the foundation right. Otherwise, we'll wind up miles off course, even though the ship will still be sailing, yet it'll be sailing to the wrong destination.

Standards of modesty and behaviour are not the be all end all of holiness. I think if we raise the standard to a Biblical level, to heart purity, entire sanctification (Psalm 26, for ex.), then the rest will fall into place. Too many have been given the false comfort that 'if I dress right, don't do this or that, and look the part, then I have holiness.' Too many have been given the false idea that 'preaching holiness means blasting jewelry and makeup and Hollyweird and public swimming pools.'

When was the last time you heard a message on Acts 15:9? That's a great text for a good old fashioned Pentecostal message, wouldn't you agree? I have never heard that verse preached, anywhere, by anyone.

We have to begin at the beginning, we have to lay the foundation first. My wife got the Holy Ghost and without any input from anyone she cleaned out her closet that night. I wasn't even living all that right (allowing certain things, I was dumb and uneducated, undiscipled in other words) but the HOLY Ghost taught her on day one certain things.

And years later she walked into an apostolic church, a 'conservative' one mind you, and was stunned and embarassed at how people were dressed, she said they look like they are going to a Pentecostal night club or something. But everything was 'within standards', mind you. Men and women looking like they are going to meet some high-dollar business man instead of the Holy God of all creation. Dressed for success?

But it will do no good whatsoever to blast away at external excesses unless and until the internal, heart impurities of pride and selfishness are blasted away. Jesus said FIRST make the inside clean...

I don't think it is fair to put the underlined comment in the same category as preaching on outward holiness. Was that not to with Judaizers trying to put unnecessary laws upon the Gentile converts? As has already been posted, Paul tells us how to not be outwardly adorned. I understand for many Pentecostals, outward holiness has been a place we hung our hats. Many have run the subject into the ground and have over emphasized outward holiness and neglected inward holiness, but do we throw the baby out with the bath water though and stop preaching outward holiness?

I get sick of hearing people saying that God judges my heart, and all the while portraying all ungodliness outwardly. The most important emphasis should be placed upon inward holiness, but the visible outward work should also be taught as a continuing evidence. Outward holiness should be taught, but not to leave the other undone.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
(1 Peter 3:1-5 KJV)

I think that is a liberal way of interpreting this passage. I understand your point and it is a valid point, but still is a liberal interpretation. Paul literally said to not let your outward adorning be a certain way, but yet people read this deeper meaning than what the text actually says. I am not saying you are wrong, but wouldn't you want to error on the safe side. My question again is why do people want to wear jewelry.

It's not the wearing of it. One can wear it and it not be considered their adornment in their hearts. They just wear it as much as we comb our hair. We don't want messy hair do we? And it's not sin to comb our hair? If jewelry is nothing more to one's heart than that, then there is no problem. It's when it becomes what our focus is on what adorns us that makes it wrong.

If we have, as though we have not, then there is no error. If we can take it or leave it, it's innocent.

In other words, if one is asked what adorns them, and they think of the gold and silver, and go overboard with it, not in moderation, they are wrong. If one is moderate with them, and is asked what adorns them, and they think spiritually and say my meek heart and quiet spirit that God sees, that is the desired intention behind those words.

If adornment in itself is simply wearing it, and that makes it wrong, then the ADORNMENT of a bride that Esaias mentioned was innocent for a wedding would not be innocent for a wedding. Again God's word does not contradict. he would not use something sinful to illustrate a holy point as a holy point is being illustrated in EZEKIEL 16 ABOUT God and his bride.

We read New Jerusalem in Rev 21 dressed as a bride adorned, and we find the city is filled with gold and jewels.

So the only way to balance the overall picture out is to realize there is nothing wrong with jewelry unless it is to the excess of being our focus and what comes to our minds when we think of what adorns us, instead of the things of the heart.

There's too much to keep that interpretation intact. There's the ring for the prodigal son. there's the earrings and bracelets for Rebekah.

God would not use those pictures. Esaias asked about their use. Well, what else are they used for then wearing them? Just keeping them in a drawer after wedding?

To me, it's like combing the hair. I think people got in the flesh about it and made a mountain out of a mole hill. And I acknowledge some people take it WAY TOO FAR, but we must be careful with anything. Treat it all with carefulness. Have as though having not. Nothing wrong with being wealthy, but if wealth becomes our universe, we can't have it at that point.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

By God's command for the people Israel to remove their jewels IMO it could be implied that God was not pleased with it.

This Biblical text actually goes against your arguments, it was because God was displeased with them that the commanded them to remove their jewelry, not before when God was please with them.

Removing the jewelry was a form of punishment.

But it was when God was please with them that he commanded them to wear jewelry.

Your legalism is the same legalism that the pharisees engaged in, and Jesus was not pleased with the super holiness of the Pharisees.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

This Biblical text actually goes against your arguments, it was because God was displeased with them that the commanded them to remove their jewelry, not before when God was please with them.

Removing the jewelry was a form of punishment.

But it was when God was please with them that he commanded them to wear jewelry.

Sort of like beards.

[good samaritan]

Why would you want to wear jewelry? I am a man and it isn't usually as big an issue with men. Although, when I was a teen I backslid. I can still remember getting a tattoo and my ears pierced. I remember the Spirit I felt when I did it. It grieves my heart that I did, but I know that their is a spiritual matter in all this that goes deeper. You can say it is about moderation, but I was not pierced all over my body, but it was only my ears. Was I wrong. I knew I was. How do you feel about men wearing ear rings?

BTW, God gave Moses laws concerning divorce and how do you think God feels about divorce. The ornaments of Ezekiel 16 tell us of the posterity given by God to Israel. Did God literally come down from heaven and put a bracelet on any of their hands, or is it God who blessed them with the ability to possess such things? Abraham was polygamous and accepted by God and his faith even counted him for righteousness. Was polygamy acceptable to God. I am not saying anyone's going to hell for jewelry, but we must be careful what we stamp God's approval on.

I still interpret 1 Peter 3:1-5 literally.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Why would you want to wear jewelry? I am a man and it isn't usually as big an issue with men.

I don't wear it either. It's not men but women.

Although, when I was a teen I backslid. I can still remember getting a tattoo and my ears pierced. I remember the Spirit I felt when I did it. It grieves my heart that I did, but I know that their is a spiritual matter in all this that goes deeper. You can say it is about moderation, but I was not pierced all over my body, but it was only my ears. Was I wrong. I knew I was. How do you feel about men wearing ear rings?

I think it's effeminate. But they did it in the bible days.

BTW, God gave Moses laws concerning divorce and how do you think God feels about divorce.

Jesus explained that.

The ornaments of Ezekiel 16 tell us of the posterity given by God to Israel. Did God literally come down from heaven and put a bracelet on any of their hands, or is it God who blessed them with the ability to possess such things?

I already addressed that. God used the picture of jewelry as an illustration of his spiritual gifts to Jerusalem. And he would not use a sinful illustration to illustrate a godly thing. I've considered all the variables, bro. It doesn't jive.

Abraham was polygamous and accepted by God and his faith even counted him for righteousness. Was polygamy acceptable to God. I am not saying anyone's going to hell for jewelry, but we must be careful what we stamp God's approval on.

I still interpret 1 Peter 3:1-5 literally.

God put his approval on jewelry when he used it as an illustration. Like I said, he would not use homosexuality to show his love for us, because it's sinful. So if he used jewelry, then jewelry isn't sinful unless taken to extremes. I take 1 Peter literally, too. It's just a question of what is literal and what is misunderstanding.

Anyway, I've said enough. I know the pressure there is in a fellowship for certain restrictions. And I respect that, and would sacrifice the issue although i think it's innocent for the sake of fellowship. If meat offend my brother...

[good samaritan]

I agree that this subject can be made a bigger deal than what it should, but I still read 1 Peter 3 literally. It has nothing to do with pressures of fellowship, but personal convictions based upon the scripture. After I got the Holy Ghost, my ear rings where some of the first things to go and I had no other reason than a desire to please God. I just hope people make their choices while walking in the Spirit and not just trying to keep up with fashion trends.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I don't think it is fair to put the underlined comment in the same category as preaching on outward holiness. Was that not to with Judaizers trying to put unnecessary laws upon the Gentile converts? As has already been posted, Paul tells us how to not be outwardly adorned. I understand for many Pentecostals, outward holiness has been a place we hung our hats. Many have run the subject into the ground and have over emphasized outward holiness and neglected inward holiness, but do we throw the baby out with the bath water though and stop preaching outward holiness?

What in the world are you talking about? Here's the verse:

And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
(Acts 15:9 KJV)

The context is the gift of the Holy Ghost. According to Peter, the Holy Ghost baptism effects purification of the heart by faith. This is something I have never heard preached by any Pentecostal, let alone apostolic, minister. To forever link holiness with outward appearance is to shortchange folks. God offers heart purity as an effect of receiving the Holy Ghost, it is normative and apostolic and biblical, and yet we want to think in terms of 'holiness=clothing and makeup etc'?

I get sick of hearing people saying that God judges my heart, and all the while portraying all ungodliness outwardly. The most important emphasis should be placed upon inward holiness, but the visible outward work should also be taught as a continuing evidence. Outward holiness should be taught, but not to leave the other undone.

Did you even read my posts here on this subject? I don't wear a wedding ring, a watch, or any cloth necklaces for that matter. But that does not amount to a hill of beans without sanctification of the heart. 'Standards' should not be the definition of 'holiness', they should fall under modesty or basic godliness. We need to raise the bar, we ought to be preaching and experiencing entire sanctification, spirit, soul, and body, the whole nine yards.

imo