2 Thess 2

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I now want to address the issue of the restrainer a bit. A lot of theories have been put forward by various persons as to who or what this is. One of the more recently popular views is that the restrainer is the either church, or the Holy Spirit. I say "more recently popular views" because this view is wholly a product of dispensational ratpurism which did not exist prior to the 1830s.

That the restrainer is the Holy Spirit is easily debunked by simply thinking about it: How can the Holy Spirit be "taken out of the way"? He can't. You can't take God out of the way.

That the restrainer is the church, "taken out of the way" via a supposed rapture, is also easily debunked by the very teaching of Paul here in this chapter.

First of all, Paul stated the coming of the Lord, and our gathering together unto Him, occurs AFTER the man of sin is revealed. If the church is the restrainer that is taken out of the way by rapture, then there is a palpable and obvious contradiction. The man of sin is revealed AFTER the rapture and the church is removed, according to dispensationalism, but according to Paul the church is resurrected and gathered to Jesus ("raptured") AFTER the man of sin is revealed and during his destruction! So obviously dispensational rapturism fails, and fails hard.

Secondly, the man of sin sits in the naos of God, a term Paul only uses for the church. If the church was removed or taken out of the way, then the man of sin could not sit in the naos of God, for it would be gone! Again, dispensationalis rapturism fails, and fails hard.

additional thoughts on the rapture:

Wasn’t 2 Thessalonians written as a clarification of 1 Thessalonians?

if so, per 2 Thessalonians, all who have not obeyed the gospel at his coming will be destroyed (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9), (There will be no one left to go thru a tribulation)

Therefore, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 cannot be a separate event from the second coming which is the first resurrection of Rev 20.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

additional thoughts on the rapture:

Wasn’t 2 Thessalonians written as a clarification of 1 Thessalonians?

if so, per 2 Thessalonians, all who have not obeyed the gospel at his coming will be destroyed (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9), (There will be no one left to go thru a tribulation)

Therefore, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 cannot be a separate event from the second coming which is the first resurrection of Rev 20.

I think that's about right. The pretrib rapture teaching is just so far gone it's not even in the game.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Amanah

additional thoughts on the rapture:

Wasn’t 2 Thessalonians written as a clarification of 1 Thessalonians?

if so, per 2 Thessalonians, all who have not obeyed the gospel at his coming will be destroyed (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9), (There will be no one left to go thru a tribulation)

Therefore, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 cannot be a separate event from the second coming which is the first resurrection of Rev 20.

The 1st resurrection is in 2 major parts.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Sean

The 1st resurrection is in 2 major parts.

yes, thank you Sean

[Sean]

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order:


All saints from the resurrected ones with Christ from the grave at Calvary until the catching away(all are firstfruits)...


Christ the firstfruits;



All tribulation saints that are slaughtered during the great tribulation(not part of the firstfruits)....


afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by Amanah

additional thoughts on the rapture:

Wasn’t 2 Thessalonians written as a clarification of 1 Thessalonians?

if so, per 2 Thessalonians, all who have not obeyed the gospel at his coming will be destroyed (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9), (There will be no one left to go thru a tribulation)

Therefore, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 cannot be a separate event from the second coming which is the first resurrection of Rev 20.

Who is the "you" of 2 Thes?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Bowas

Who is the "you" of 2 Thes?

"You who are troubled".

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

"You who are troubled".

That is correct, and the "you who are troubled" are the same "you" as found in the following:

2Th 2:5.. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?..

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Bowas

That is correct, and the "you who are troubled" are the same "you" as found in the following:

2Th 2:5.. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?..

And those are the same "you" as found in verses 13, 14, 15, 16, and 17 of that same chapter. In fact, they are the exact same "you" found in every single verse where the second person pronoun occurs throughout the whole epistle.

Isn't that neat?

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

And those are the same "you" as found in verses 13, 14, 15, 16, and 17 of that same chapter. In fact, they are the exact same "you" found in every single verse where the second person pronoun occurs throughout the whole epistle.

Isn't that neat?

Right! I've seen some actually think the "you" Paul had visited with, and was speaking to back then, is written to them them, and they weren't even there at the time. lol