The Gates of Hell?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

So, history would negate the Biblical witness for you.

Eastern Orthodoxy awaits you for baptism.

They make too much noise as they walk pictures to church. Not my style.

The history would only validate that God didn't drop the ball for nearly 2000 years.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Jack?

I guess when you post you are sipping single barrel proof?

LOL! No.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Hell in this verse is hades which is a place of the dead. I have heard preachers talking about storming the gates of hell and I have wondered why would a person want to get in there when Jesus died to get us out. lol.

You make a good point. Lol

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

They make too much noise as they walk pictures to church. Not my style.

The history would only validate that God didn't drop the ball for nearly 2000 years.

History is always questionable. The reason being is that Christian history rarely has an objective view. Why, because it is Christians throughout history silence all opposition. Being a historian takes detective work, and following leads to primary sources, which in Christianity must start with its holy book, the Bible. Therefore the Bible is the greatest historical reference available. Your personal inability to find Hazelwood Missouri in the Bible still doesn't make the Apostolic Pentecostal message null and void. The Bible backs up the Apostolic message. You can't see that, well get behind groups like the Sedevacantists, The Coptic Church, and Eastern Orthodox church, because they don't see it either, yet they won't swallow your opinions based on nothing more than gut feelings.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

History is always questionable. The reason being is that Christian history rarely has an objective view. Why, because it is Christians throughout history silence all opposition. Being a historian takes detective work, and following leads to primary sources, which in Christianity must start with its holy book, the Bible. Therefore the Bible is the greatest historical reference available. Your personal inability to find Hazelwood Missouri in the Bible still doesn't make the Apostolic Pentecostal message null and void. The Bible backs up the Apostolic message. You can't see that, well get behind groups like the Sedevacantists, The Coptic Church, and Eastern Orthodox church, because they don't see it either, yet they won't swallow your opinions based on nothing more than gut feelings.

Agreed, history is rarely objective.

Let's slow down, no straw men, no attacks. I promise, my questions are not a setup. I'm just looking for information.

Let's both agree on Act 2:38 as the full Gospel, and stop there with no additional thoughts.

Do you at least believe that there was a church, no matter how small or historically invisible, that held the truth?

[Monterrey]

Originally Posted by Esaias

In the other thread an idea was put forward: Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against the church, and this means there would be a continuous, visible, historically identifiable church on the earth for all time from the apostles' days to the present. (By the term "church" I mean an assembly of truly regenerate believers holding correct doctrine regarding salvation.)

I deny that is what Jesus meant.

I challenge those who believe that to come here and prove it. Prove that the gates of hell not prevailing against the church = a continuous, visible, historical church from the 1st century till now, and identify that church for us.

Then, I will refute your argument(s). In the process, I will prove what He meant, from Scripture.

Well, let me stir this up some. I think the gates were where the elders sat and gave counsel and judgment. Could the gates of hell refer to the counsel of the ungodly?

Look at psalms one where it warns against walking in the counsel of the ungodly.

So taken that way it would mean that the counsel of the ungodly would not prevail.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Agreed, history is rarely objective.

Let's slow down, no straw men, no attacks. I promise, my questions are not a setup. I'm just looking for information.

Let's both agree on Act 2:38 as the full Gospel, and stop there with no additional thoughts.

Do you at least believe that there was a church, no matter how small or historically invisible, that held the truth?

Look, nothing springs up out of the ether. Meaning that we may think we invented the wheel, but we soon find out others had it long before we did. The Bible is our history book, while we may want to pat ourselves on the back for being Apostolic Pentecostals thinking we were the only ones to baptize in Jesus name and be filled with the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues, others did it also. Why, because they had the same instruction manual. MeMaw's cheesy corn bake is handed down through the generations and taste the same because everyone followed her recipe. Yet, some added to it, while others subtracted from it, but there was always a small group who followed the recipe to the t and never wavered. Same thing with the Bible.
Hence we can trace our lineage right back to the Bible. I had to go back and forth with Sedevacantists and Eastern Orthodox over "where did your group come from?" that is how they debate, and that is where they start. To defend you must first show where you get your belief from, and ask them to show their belief right from the historical primary source. If they can't produce the information out of those pages, then they are not the people of the book. Period.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Monterrey

Well, let me stir this up some. I think the gates were where the elders sat and gave counsel and judgment. Could the gates of hell refer to the counsel of the ungodly?

Look at psalms one where it warns against walking in the counsel of the ungodly.

So taken that way it would mean that the counsel of the ungodly would not prevail.

I think you may be on to something.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Seriously, God's Word doesn't return void. If I saw a solid church witness throughout history, I'd weep tears of joy. I'd also repent and preach it the way you do.

If you SAW a "solid church witness THROUGHOUT HISTORY"? You'd preach it the way THAT GROUP preached it, right?

The closest you'll get is this:

https://www.patriarchate.org

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Look, nothing springs up out of the ether. Meaning that we may think we invented the wheel, but we soon find out others had it long before we did. The Bible is our history book, while we may want to pat ourselves on the back for being Apostolic Pentecostals thinking we were the only ones to baptize in Jesus name and be filled with the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues, others did it also. Why, because they had the same instruction manual. MeMaw's cheesy corn bake is handed down through the generations and taste the same because everyone followed her recipe. Yet, some added to it, while others subtracted from it, but there was always a small group who followed the recipe to the t and never wavered. Same thing with the Bible.
Hence we can trace our lineage right back to the Bible. I had to go back and forth with Sedevacantists and Eastern Orthodox over "where did your group come from?" that is how they debate, and that is where they start. To defend you must first show where you get your belief from, and ask them to show their belief right from the historical primary source. If they can't produce the information out of those pages, then they are not the people of the book. Period.

"When did your group start? How long have they been around?"

"Oh, when did that become the criterion of truth?"

This quest for a VISIBLE HISTORICAL UNBROKEN CONTINUITY is based on an assumption - an invalid one, at that.

Jesus said "Whoever does the will of God is my brother, sister, etc." Therefore, the true church is identified SOLELY by adherance to the Gospel. Time is irrelevant.

John said "Don't claim historical continuity with Abraham, because God can raise up children unto Abraham from these rocks."

Historical continuity aka "apostolic succession" is an unbiblical doctrine. If it were true, ABSOLUTELY NOBODY ALIVE TODAY IS A MEMBER OF CHRIST'S CHURCH. PERIOD. Including the Coptics, Assyrians, Antiochenes, and Tridentine Latins, not to mention Baptists, Anabaptists, or anybody else.