John3 and Romans2: Part2

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Therefore, there will be some from NT times who are righteous, unbaptized and going to heaven.

Unbelievers who never even heard about Jesus but are righteous and going to heaven? Because they "listened to their conscience to stay away from sin"?

This is nothing else than heathens being saved by works.

Yet according to Paul:
Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

And again:

Titus 3:5-7 KJV
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [6] Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


How does a heathen who has never even heard about the God of Abraham "obey their conscience" and "avoid sin", when the first and greatest commandment is to "love God with all your heart, mind, and strength"? Can you love God supremely when you do not even know who He is or even that He exists?

How does such a person gain heaven when "without faith it is impossible to please God"? When we know that "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God"?

Is there an example in Scripture of any heathens who did not know God at all who were granted eternal life by virtue of their good works and righteous deeds, apart from faith in Christ? Can some men come to the Father by some way other than Jesus Christ, when He said "NO man comes to the Father but by Me"? When there is no other name given among men whereby we must be saved?

Have you thought this idea of yours through?

Again, Romans 2 is about regenerate christian gentiles who have the law of God written in their heart, which as has been proven already is a core element of the new covenant. Therefore people who have the law of God written in their heart must necessarily be members of the new covenant, which means they must necessarily be Christians.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Moving from the other thread to here to consolidate the discussion:



I think you have misinterpreted (or misapplied) this passage in Romans to unregenerate persons. Paul speaks of these gentiles as "showing the work of the law written in their hearts". The Bible identifies the writing of the law in the heart as a key element of the new covenant:

Jeremiah 31:31-33 KJV
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: [33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hebrews 8:6-10 KJV
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. [7] For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

The old covenant did not produce a people that bore the fruits of righteousness, reflecting God's moral character in their lives. The new covenant was established to remedy that problem, to produce obedience, to produce a people who did in fact reflect the character of our Father:

Romans 8:3-7 KJV
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [5] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

So then when Paul speaks of the uncircumcised actually doing the things contained in the law, thus showing the "work of the law written in their hearts", these must of necessity be regenerated persons, people in the new covenant, who have experienced the writing of God's law in the heart by the Spirit of God, even though they are not physically circumcised.

So it seems the context of Paul's words is those who are in the new covenant, that the uncircumcised (gentile Christian) would be justified rather than the circumcised (Jewish non-christian), that the disobedient but circumcised Jew would fare worse than the obedient but uncircumcised Christian.

Bump

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Moving from the other thread to here to consolidate the discussion:



I think you have misinterpreted (or misapplied) this passage in Romans to unregenerate persons. Paul speaks of these gentiles as "showing the work of the law written in their hearts". The Bible identifies the writing of the law in the heart as a key element of the new covenant:

Jeremiah 31:31-33 KJV
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: [33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hebrews 8:6-10 KJV
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. [7] For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

The old covenant did not produce a people that bore the fruits of righteousness, reflecting God's moral character in their lives. The new covenant was established to remedy that problem, to produce obedience, to produce a people who did in fact reflect the character of our Father:

Romans 8:3-7 KJV
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [5] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

So then when Paul speaks of the uncircumcised actually doing the things contained in the law, thus showing the "work of the law written in their hearts", these must of necessity be regenerated persons, people in the new covenant, who have experienced the writing of God's law in the heart by the Spirit of God, even though they are not physically circumcised.

So it seems the context of Paul's words is those who are in the new covenant, that the uncircumcised (gentile Christian) would be justified rather than the circumcised (Jewish non-christian), that the disobedient but circumcised Jew would fare worse than the obedient but uncircumcised Christian.

For anyone needing to be brought up to speed on this thread. Esaias ended this debate literally in the first portion of this thread. The primary issue we are now dealing with is an individual who cannot deal with being wrong. Esaias did a great job posting the Biblical irrefutable proof on Romans.

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

For anyone needing to be brought up to speed on this thread. Esaias ended this debate literally in the first portion of this thread. The primary issue we are now dealing with is an individual who cannot deal with being wrong. Esaias did a great job posting the Biblical irrefutable proof on Romans.

Evang.Benincasa quotes Esaias who says Originally Posted by Esaias View Post 8
Moving from the other thread to here to consolidate the discussion:

I think you have misinterpreted (or misapplied) this passage in Romans to unregenerate persons. Paul speaks of these gentiles as "showing the work of the law written in their hearts". The Bible identifies the writing of the law in the heart as a key element of the new covenant: I've replied to this post before, but I'll repeat myself. Any who have the gospel also have the law. It would be wrong to say these 'who have the law written on their hearts' do so from the Spirit, being the regenerate. Paul, not donfriesen1, says these Gentiles not having the law. If they don't have the law then they can't have the gospel, because any with the gospel also have the law. Paul, not donfriesen1, says, what these gentiles do by nature results in the work of the law written in their hearts. The context of the passage shows that the nature is the conscience and not the Word or the Spirit. Therefore these gentiles are unregenerate. Any unflinchingly agreeing with this agree with the unflinching ing rock of the Word. Why would anyone ever not want to agree with God?

But nice try Evang.Benincasa, this does not show that Esaias has irrefutedly proved what he says. But, plz, do keep trying.

Evang.Benincasa says The primary issue we are now dealing with is an individual who cannot deal with being wrong. which may be the case of others posting in this thread. What say you Evang.Benincasa. Yes or no: do you refute the idea that these gentiles are unregenerate, contradicting Paul/the Word? Or should I say nevermind because I think you will answer Yes and you will contradict the logic which says those who have the gospel also have the law. Amanah will say Yes because her undispensationalist views say any who have the new covenant have all covenants. Are you a dispensationalist or an undispensationalist?

God and his Word are one and when we receive the Spirit we receive the Word. And for what purpose? To direct us for right living, may be a partial answer. But right living can also be directed by other means. Among them: preaching, reading the Word and Christian books, listening to our parents instructions as kids, Christian singing, etc, etc. Therefore it is not improbable that we can be directed by another method, the God-instilled conscience. The Spirit and the conscience are God-infused methods to direct us to right-living, while the others are external. Whether the Word comes directly to our spirit or via the eyes, ears to the brain to the spirit, it makes no difference as long as our living lines up with God's will. God has not limited himself to one way, the infused Word by the Spirit, of reaching our hearts and actions, as implied by Esaias and Dom.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 KJV
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: [33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hebrews 8:6-10 KJV
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. [7] For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

The old covenant did not produce a people that bore the fruits of righteousness, Errr,...what about Moses, David, Daniel, Joseph....Mary...reflecting God's moral character in their lives. The new covenant was established to remedy that problem, to produce obedience, to produce a people who did in fact reflect the character of our Father:

Romans 8:3-7 KJV
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [5] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

So then when Paul speaks of the uncircumcised actually doing the things contained in the law, thus showing the "work of the law written in their hearts", these must of necessity be regenerated persons, people in the new covenant, who have experienced the writing of God's law in the heart by the Spirit of God, even though they are not physically circumcised.

So it seems the context of Paul's words is those who are in the new covenant Yes, exactly. The context is a NT writer writes to NT people about NT-time gentiles, who don't have the Word., that the uncircumcised (gentile Christian) would be justified rather than the circumcised (Jewish non-christian), that the disobedient but circumcised Jew would fare worse than the obedient but uncircumcised Christian.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

God, either does not write their name in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the world in his foreknowledge Mt 25.34* Rev 17.8* (If in foreknowledge the names aren't written, the place must be in Heaven, because the earth is 'not yet', nor has the sinner's heart yet been created); or instead, their written names are blotted.

Here is another example where a Scriptural doctrine is being misinterpreted. I don't really fault you, because this error is rampant within the religion calling itself "Christianity", although it is not taught by the apostles and thus is not part of the real apostolic faith.

It concerns the use of the term "foreknowledge". You are basically saying God has foreknowledge in eternity past, before the creation of anything, as to who is and who is not in the Book of Life. But notice the following:

1. Matthew 25:34 does not say this nor imply this. It says that the kingdom is from the foundation of the world, that the righteous are to enter the kingdom prepared for them "from the foundation of the world". This simply means that from the foundation of the world God had a kingdom prepared for the righteous, NOT that God foreknew who exactly and specifically the righteous would be, nor that any of them would specifically and individually make it to that kingdom.

2. Foreknowledge, as used by Scripture, specifically the apostle Paul, does not have regard to "God knowing in eternity past who specifically and individually would be saved and who not." Rather, it has regard to God's prior ordained destiny for Israel, that they would enter the new covenant:

Romans 8:28-30 KJV
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. [29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Here, those who are foreknown, are predestinated to be saved Christians. Who then are those whom God foreknew?

Romans 11:1-4 KJV
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. [2] God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, [3] Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. [4] But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

It is Israel which was foreknown of God. It is therefore Israel which is predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ. These are they whom are said to be not only predestinated but called and glorified. As here:

Romans 9:1-5 KJV
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, [2] That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. [3] For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: [4] Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; [5] Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

The adoption to God through Christ pertains to Israelites. The glorification through Christ pertains to Israelites. The covenants - PLURAL, both old and new - pertain to Israelites. the service of God and the promises pertain to Israelites. Why? Because Israel is the people "foreknown" of God, who are predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ. NONE of this has to do with any particular person's personal, individual, destiny "predetermined in advance by God before the creation of anything".

God's foreknowledge (in this context), and the doctrine of predestination, has to do with the NATIONAL STATUS and POSITION of the descendants of Jacob, that they are the people foreknown of God, they are the people predestinated as a people to become Christians, to enter the new covenant under Christ, to be glorified with Christ, to be adopted as children of God through Christ, etc. The new covenant was made with "the House of Judah and the House of Israel". Christ said "I am not come but for the lost sheep of the House of Israel". Predestination and foreknowledge are not about individual personal destinies, but the corporate destiny of Israel.

God has always had a Book of Life. In every age, in every generation, people are either in that Book (they are faithful to God) or not. Abraham's children are written in the Book by virtue of being children of Abraham, because they are part of the Covenant God made with Abraham. BUT they are "blotted out" if they are not faithful. One cannot be "blotted out" of a book they are not previously written in. Christians who are in the Book can be blotted out of the Book if they are not faithful. Why? Because the Book of Life is the record of those in covenant with God, which means Israel and those joined to Israel via the New Covenant.

[donfriesen1]

[QUOTE=Esaias;1615241]

2. Foreknowledge, as used by Scripture, specifically the apostle Paul, does not have regard to "God knowing in eternity past who specifically and individually would be saved and who not." Rather, it has regard to God's prior ordained destiny for Israel, that they would enter the new covenant:

Romans 8:28-30 KJV
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. [29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Here, those who are foreknown, are predestinated to be saved Christians. Who then are those whom God foreknew?

It is Israel which was foreknown of God. It is therefore Israel which is predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ. These are they whom are said to be not only predestinated but called and glorified.

God's foreknowledge (in this context), and the doctrine of predestination, has to do with the NATIONAL STATUS and POSITION of the descendants of Jacob,
Predestination and foreknowledge are not about individual personal destinies, but the corporate destiny of Israel.

Because a blade of grass exists it does so by the will of God. The tree which became the Cross also existed by the will of God. No one would argue that one has much greater relevance than the other but the same will of God brings both equally. For God to foreknow the existence of any individual isn't any harder for him to do than to foreknow the existence of Israel. His omniscience makes each of equal effort. In the same way that the foreknowledge of God pre-determines the destiny of Israel it also pre-determines the individual. God's infinite resources show one as equally achievable as the other. Easy-peasy. I see no reason to discriminate between the lesser and the greater when it comes to the foreknowledge/pre-determinization. I'd be interested to hear any thoughts why this should be thought necessary, but perhaps on another thread?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Because a blade of grass exists it does so by the will of God. The tree which became the Cross also existed by the will of God. No one would argue that one has much greater relevance than the other but the same will of God brings both equally. For God to foreknow the existence of any individual isn't any harder for him to do than to foreknow the existence of Israel. His omniscience makes each of equal effort. In the same way that the foreknowledge of God pre-determines the destiny of Israel it also pre-determines the individual. God's infinite resources show one as equally achievable as the other. Easy-peasy. I see no reason to discriminate between the lesser and the greater when it comes to the foreknowledge/pre-determinization. I'd be interested to hear any thoughts why this should be thought necessary, but perhaps on another thread?

The Bible defines its own terms, in this case foreknowledge and predestination. I have no idea what blades of grass and what-ifs based on God's omnipotence have to do with the discussion. God's foreknowledge does not determine the individual salvation status of each individual person. Why? First of all because THE BIBLE DOESN'T SAY THAT, second because the Bible specifically explains foreknowledge as having to do with Israel's corporate status with God in contrast with the heathen, and third because if your view is correct there is no free will and Calvinism is the logical result.

Are you a Calvinist?

Edit: If the foreknowledge of God predetermines the destiny of each individual (as you have stated) then a person who repents but dies in an unbaptised state has been predestinated by God to die in an unbaptised state, Furthermore, the heathens in the Amazon or Sentinel Island who never hear about Jesus have been predestined by God to never hear about Jesus. To suggest these various groups of people die lost and bound for hell just means they were predestined by God to do so, so why all the fuss?

If anybody gets saved it is because God predestined them to be saved, and if anybody winds up lost it is because God predestined them to be lost, if what you are saying is correct. This doesn't need another thread, because it bears directly on this thread's topic.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Here is another example where a Scriptural doctrine is being misinterpreted. I don't really fault you, because this error is rampant within the religion calling itself "Christianity", although it is not taught by the apostles and thus is not part of the real apostolic faith.

It concerns the use of the term "foreknowledge". You are basically saying God has foreknowledge in eternity past, before the creation of anything, as to who is and who is not in the Book of Life. But notice the following:

1. Matthew 25:34 does not say this nor imply this. It says that the kingdom is from the foundation of the world, that the righteous are to enter the kingdom prepared for them "from the foundation of the world". This simply means that from the foundation of the world God had a kingdom prepared for the righteous, NOT that God foreknew who exactly and specifically the righteous would be, nor that any of them would specifically and individually make it to that kingdom.

2. Foreknowledge, as used by Scripture, specifically the apostle Paul, does not have regard to "God knowing in eternity past who specifically and individually would be saved and who not." Rather, it has regard to God's prior ordained destiny for Israel, that they would enter the new covenant:

Romans 8:28-30 KJV
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. [29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Here, those who are foreknown, are predestinated to be saved Christians. Who then are those whom God foreknew?

Romans 11:1-4 KJV
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. [2] God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, [3] Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. [4] But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

It is Israel which was foreknown of God. It is therefore Israel which is predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ. These are they whom are said to be not only predestinated but called and glorified. As here:

Romans 9:1-5 KJV
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, [2] That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. [3] For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: [4] Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; [5] Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

The adoption to God through Christ pertains to Israelites. The glorification through Christ pertains to Israelites. The covenants - PLURAL, both old and new - pertain to Israelites. the service of God and the promises pertain to Israelites. Why? Because Israel is the people "foreknown" of God, who are predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ. NONE of this has to do with any particular person's personal, individual, destiny "predetermined in advance by God before the creation of anything".

God's foreknowledge (in this context), and the doctrine of predestination, has to do with the NATIONAL STATUS and POSITION of the descendants of Jacob, that they are the people foreknown of God, they are the people predestinated as a people to become Christians, to enter the new covenant under Christ, to be glorified with Christ, to be adopted as children of God through Christ, etc. The new covenant was made with "the House of Judah and the House of Israel". Christ said "I am not come but for the lost sheep of the House of Israel". Predestination and foreknowledge are not about individual personal destinies, but the corporate destiny of Israel.

God has always had a Book of Life. In every age, in every generation, people are either in that Book (they are faithful to God) or not. Abraham's children are written in the Book by virtue of being children of Abraham, because they are part of the Covenant God made with Abraham. BUT they are "blotted out" if they are not faithful. One cannot be "blotted out" of a book they are not previously written in. Christians who are in the Book can be blotted out of the Book if they are not faithful. Why? Because the Book of Life is the record of those in covenant with God, which means Israel and those joined to Israel via the New Covenant.

[Amanah]

Thanks for clarification Bro Esaias!

[donfriesen1]

Many of the posts by Amanah, Evang Benincasa and Esaias that have replied to my original posting had to do with expounding on the faith of NT gospel, which I agree on. They show an excellent defence of it. I agree that NT salvation is by faith in what the Lord purchased on the Cross, obeying the gospel of the new birth to receive his benefits. I have not replied much to these posts because it was not relevant in the following sense. Paul says that these Gentiles in Ro2.12-16 don't have the law. But any having the gospel also have the law. These Gentiles who don't have the law then also must not have the gospel. Any arguments put forward having to do with explaining the gospel are then out of place, resulting in my lack of response to them. Other posts that I had not replied to were on subjects other than those directly relating and may have been ignored, not responded to for the same reason.

Post 7. Esaias says in his second paragraph I would submit to you that the Bible actually teaches that humans are NOT immortal.... I'll not comment on this.

Post 26. Amanah says The problem with the thought that the unregenerate person can be spared is that only those with the Holy Spirit will be resurrected to immortality. Sure the power of the Holy Ghost resurrects those born again. But what Amanah fails to show is all, sinner and saint, are resurrected in the general resurrection, for judgment. Those sinners do not have the Holy Ghost yet are resurrected. Those Gentiles in Ro 2 do not have the Holy Ghost yet are are described as justified, just-as-if-I'd-never-sinned and fit for heaven, without the Holy Ghost to resurrect them.

Post 27. Esaias says MOST get faith by hearing the Word? Not all? Some get faith apart from hearing? Paul said faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Not most, some, a portion, etc. Some read the Bible and faith doesn't grow in their heart. Getting faith from the Bible doesn't exclude that faith can come from other sources, but certainly is one source. Faith grows when the Holy Ghost speaks, which is another source. There are others.

Post 64. a) Amanah notes under Consistency: ...which states that all have sinned and are justified by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Grace through faith in Jesus in those who have heard about Jesus. These Gentiles in Ro2 haven't heard.
b) Under Imputation:...have the law written on their hearts. Paul shows these have never heard, therefore they can't be born again.
c) Under Enoch:...His situation is not comparable to Gentiles in the New Testament era. But Enoch is comparable in this aspect. He lived in the time before the law, and didn't have the Word. He is similar to these Gentiles in Ro2 because they also do not have the Word.
d) Under Judgment:...based on truth, not appearances. If so, then God judges by appearances when he uses the conscience at the last judgment. Will you say he is wrong to do so? I think not.

post 65. Esaias says my arguments are pure legalism because he says it is based on works. My response would be to say that the conscience is instilled by God and any responding to it are responding to God's impulses. Does responding to God get classified as works or faith. I'd say it is more like faith.

Post 67 Amanah talks of Luther and justification by faith. People grow faith in response to the Word. If faith can grow also by responding to the Holy Ghost then what difference is it if it is then in response to another God-given method, the God-given conscience, as long as it leads to the right place -- right living? To say responding to the God-given conscience is self righteous good works shows a misunderstanding of what works are.