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  #291  
Old 06-03-2007, 12:31 PM
berkeley berkeley is offline
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Illegals and the church::::

As a christian I believe we need to win everyone to the LORD! Amen:::
I don't think it is a great christian witness to win them and then send them packing home.

As an American, I believe it is the responsibility of our government to close the borders. It is not YOUR job to call "la migra" to round up the illegals in your churches or your communities.

-no wax
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  #292  
Old 06-03-2007, 12:42 PM
Nahum Nahum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
.
As for your CHURCH POLICY .... and the church PROMOTING illegal activity ... no one is standing on the pulpit and saying DO IT ... but the fact remains people sit in our pews and are NOT PERFECT ... some are living in sin, not claiming all of their taxes, have numerous moving violations, don't wear their seatbelts, drive over the speed limit, etc. ...

as you seek to use the pejorative label as CRIMINAL on all illegals ... I think we have reached an impasse.

The UPCI has had a long-standing policy on illegals ... I challenge you to give D. Scott a call and find out what it is ....


.
You want no amnesty ... PP ... that is your stated policy ....

REPENTANCE??? Do big US corporations go to the altar of gov't when billions of dollars are FORGIVEN when we issue TAX AMNESTIES ....???

An amnesty, under proper strictures, would allow them to make their situation right.... HELLLOOOO.
Examine ALL of my posts on taxes and you will SEE HOW DEAD WRONG ... YOU ARE ....

then examine the absolutes stated by you and your blockhead compadre ... unequivocally stating that they don't ... AT ALL.

ADMIT YOU WERE WRONG .... you get your info from TALK RADIO callers.
You are so funny. It's so easy to push your buttons and watch your head spin wildly! HAHAHA!!!

The entire trouble iis YOU don't believe in absolutes.

Two wrongs don't make a right Daniel.

I don't believe in awarding citizenship to those who show no interest in it.
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  #293  
Old 06-03-2007, 12:47 PM
berkeley berkeley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Poster View Post

I don't believe in awarding citizenship to those who show no interest in it.
I agree with this::::
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  #294  
Old 06-03-2007, 01:43 PM
Fahrenheit
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Enforcement alone is not the answer!

“The attempt to stop the flow of Mexican labor into the United States through unilateral enforcement has not only failed miserably, it has backfired. It has not deterred would-be immigrants from entering the United States nor has it reduced the size of the annual inflow. What it HAS done is channel migratory flows away from traditional crossing points to remote zones where the physical risks are great but the likelihood of getting caught is small. As a result, the number of deaths has skyrocketed to a record 460 persons per year while the probability of apprehension has fallen to forty year low.We are spending more tax dollars to catch fewer migrants and cause more deaths.” (Douglas S. Massey, Ph.D Testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee, October 18, 2005)
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  #295  
Old 06-03-2007, 01:54 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd View Post
Prax in certain pockets (like Los Angles) this is true. there are people who cannot get low wage entry level jobs that they want because of illegal immagration. however, it is a misconception that this is common everywhere. in fact the opposite is true in many areas.


also US unemployment is less than 5% right now. it isnt like we have a job shortage.
Right, however because Illegal immigration continues to grow and many illegals ARE looking for job markets outside of Southern California and other border states...well you get the picture right?

BTW US unemployment figures are based on those recently out of work or employed and not those that have been unemployed for an extended period from what I have heard
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  #296  
Old 06-03-2007, 02:03 PM
SDG SDG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Poster View Post
You are so funny. It's so easy to push your buttons and watch your head spin wildly! HAHAHA!!!

The entire trouble iis YOU don't believe in absolutes.

Two wrongs don't make a right Daniel.

I don't believe in awarding citizenship to those who show no interest in it.
No interest ... yet many are paying their taxes in good faith ... for an impending amnesty ...

They're doing the best they can ... w/ their families as first priority ....

It's quite obvious I've shut you down ... when you can resort to is pushing buttons ....
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  #297  
Old 06-03-2007, 02:04 PM
SDG SDG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fahrenheit View Post
Enforcement alone is not the answer!

“The attempt to stop the flow of Mexican labor into the United States through unilateral enforcement has not only failed miserably, it has backfired. It has not deterred would-be immigrants from entering the United States nor has it reduced the size of the annual inflow. What it HAS done is channel migratory flows away from traditional crossing points to remote zones where the physical risks are great but the likelihood of getting caught is small. As a result, the number of deaths has skyrocketed to a record 460 persons per year while the probability of apprehension has fallen to forty year low.We are spending more tax dollars to catch fewer migrants and cause more deaths.” (Douglas S. Massey, Ph.D Testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee, October 18, 2005)
Send PP and the AFF militia brigade ....
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  #298  
Old 06-03-2007, 02:05 PM
SDG SDG is offline
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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
Right, however because Illegal immigration continues to grow and many illegals ARE looking for job markets outside of Southern California and other border states...well you get the picture right?

BTW US unemployment figures are based on those recently out of work or employed and not those that have been unemployed for an extended period from what I have heard
Say it w/ me ... President Bush's administration has UNEMPLOYMENT LEVELS AT AN ALL TIME LOW!!!
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  #299  
Old 06-03-2007, 02:12 PM
SDG SDG is offline
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The genesis of the anti-immigrant movemet:

Part 1:

Defending Immigrants
A key activist in the struggle for immigrant rights discusses the evolution and nature of the anti-immigration movement

Over the last quarter of a century, Rick Swartz may have done more than any other activist to encourage a healthy level of immigration to America and to protect the rights of immigrants once they are here.

After graduating from the University of Chicago Law School, Swartz directed an immigrant rights project at the Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights before going on to found, in 1982, what has become the nation's leading immigration rights advocacy group, the National Immigration Forum.
Swartz was president of the Forum, a coalition of more than 250 national organizations and several thousand local groups, until 1990.
In that post, he worked to secure a safe haven for Haitian and Central American war refugees, to legalize the status of millions of other immigrants and to battle the anti-immigrant and English Only movements.
Since leaving the Forum, Swartz, now 52, has run a small public policy firm representing a range of corporate and nonprofit clients, at the same time continuing his immigration advocacy work.

The Intelligence Report asked Swartz about his lengthy battles with America's leading anti-immigration activists, his view of the movement today, and his analysis of the movement's prospects.

INTELLIGENCE REPORT: In looking at the contemporary anti-immigrant movement<[see story, p. 44]>, we've found that even though there are a large number of organizations involved, they almost always seem to go back to one man — John Tanton, the Michigan ophthalmologist who founded the Federation for American Immigration Reform [FAIR] in 1979. Has that always been the case?

SWARTZ: Tanton is the puppeteer behind this entire movement. He is the organizer of a significant amount of its financing, and is both the major recruiter of key personnel and the intellectual leader of the whole network of groups.

I don't know if he's personally wealthy — it could well be that people give him big donations just because he is so mesmerizing. He does have a charismatic feel about him.

It's been clear since 1988, when a series of embarrassing internal memos by Tanton and Roger Conner [who was then executive director of FAIR] were leaked to the press, what the overall strategy is.

Those memos are a blueprint for what Tanton and his friends have been doing ever since.

IR: Can you describe that blueprint?

SWARTZ: The blueprint envisaged creating a whole array of organizations that serve the overall ideological and political battle plan to halt immigration — even if some of these groups have somewhat differing politics.

They camouflage the links between these organizations, their true origins, so that they appear to have arisen spontaneously. But in fact they have the same creator, Tanton.

IR: So the idea was to create the illusion of a grassroots movement that was supported by a significant number of Americans?

SWARTZ: Yes indeed, to confuse the press. The leaked memos did bring some public attention to the Tanton network, and some of these linkages were further exposed in the early 1990s.
More recently, FAIR's tax records established that the Center for Immigration Studies, which has become an influential Washington institution, was spun off from FAIR as a separate organization. But these facts aren't widely known by the public today.

For years and years, FAIR and these other spinoffs have been part of a strategy of, "Well, it can't just be FAIR and other major Tanton creations like U.S. English and the Center for Immigration Studies, because then it's too easy to pin us down. So therefore how about creating NumbersUSA, English First, the American Immigration Control Foundation and all these smaller local groups?"

All of this was anticipated by the memos, which were written in 1986, two years before the leak.

IR: Has even the limited exposure of these kinds of linkages damaged the ability of Tanton's anti-immigrant groups to affect public policy in Congress?

SWARTZ: They are well known to everybody deeply involved in the immigration debate. But when it comes to Congress, very few members — maybe two — can come close to understanding the situation or the history of the immigration reform efforts of the last 25 years. They may have voted on immigration-related items, but immigration is not a way of life for them.

IR: Let's go back a little. How did Tanton get started?

SWARTZ: When Tanton started FAIR in 1979, he was already president of a liberal organization, Zero Population Growth [ZPG]. He wanted ZPG to be the vehicle for a significant advocacy effort to reduce immigration, but the senior staff and at least some members of the ZPG board resisted.

As a result, FAIR was created. Conner ran FAIR as executive director through most of the '80s before leaving to become executive director of yet another Tanton creation, the American Alliance for Rights and Responsibilities, which was intended to be an antidote to the ACLU [American Civil Liberties Union].

At the time, FAIR was promoting employer sanctions [laws to punish those who hire illegal aliens] and dramatic increases in border enforcement, sweeps, arrests and deportations. It was opposing guest worker programs and asylum for refugees from Haiti or the Central American wars.

It was also FAIR that first had the idea of barring social services and other public benefits for immigrants [an enterprise that came to fruition with California's Proposition 187, which was passed in 1994 with the support of FAIR and other Tanton creations, but ultimately found to be unconstitutional]. FAIR also tried to build linkages to mainstream environmental groups, but without much success.
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  #300  
Old 06-03-2007, 02:13 PM
SDG SDG is offline
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Part 2:

IR: When did Tanton get into the English Only movement?


SWARTZ: Tanton established an organization called U.S. English in the early 1980s, and this became his second major national organization after FAIR.

The organization was dedicated to "English Only" [the idea that all official government business should be conducted in English alone], and it attracted into its ranks a number of well-known celebrities — Walter Cronkite and Arnold Schwarzenegger, for example. U.S. English funded a range of "official English" state and local referenda [through early 2002, 27 states had passed English-only legislation].

The most recent example of this kind of activity is in Iowa, where the governor earlier this year declared English the state's official language.
By the way, there is a lot happening in Iowa right now. Why Iowa?
Well, you've got meatpacking plants and the immigrants employed in them, leading to demographic change. And you have Iowa's governor making pro-immigration statements over the last couple of years, saying we're losing people and we need new people, therefore we should be trying to attract immigrants.

And, of course, Iowa is the first presidential primary. So add it all up, and you can see why they're spending a ton of advertising money in Iowa.
It's perfect for Tanton's message.

IR: Although he has always denied it, Tanton and his progeny have frequently been accused of being racist, not to mention anti-Catholic and, in particular, anti-Hispanic.

In fact, Tanton helped to arrange for the English-language publication of The Camp of the Saints, a grotesquely racist French novel that tells of European civilization being overrun by bestial Third World immigrants. And he continues to promulgate that book in his role as publisher of The Social Contract Press, a hate group.

What do you make of the role of this remarkable book?
SWARTZ: A movement of the kind that Tanton envisions needs a bible. It needs a bible for conversion. It needs a bible as an ideological road map.
It needs a bible to stimulate zeal and a sense of belief among its followers. The Camp of the Saints is that book for Tanton.

It puts out a vision of immigrants rampaging and destroying the West, and that is the vision that Tanton believes in and wants his followers to believe in.

James Crawford, who wrote a book on the English Only movement, calls The Camp of the Saints "a cult book" — and that is what I think it is.

IR: A similar vision of white people being overwhelmed by dusky, Third World hordes is suggested in the Tanton-Conner memos. Did the leak of those memos to The Arizona Republic hurt Tanton and FAIR significantly?

SWARTZ: It hurt him a lot at the time. The revelations led to the resignation of Linda Chavez, who had become executive director of U.S. English in the mid-1980s [and is a conservative Republican columnist today].

A whole group of celebrities resigned from the board or advisory board of U.S. English because of the memos, which were complicated by The Camp of the Saints being sort of a Holy Bible for the movement. All this revealed the underlying ideology of Tanton.

It also made it that much more difficult for people like [former Sen.] Alan Simpson [R-Wyo.] and others who shared FAIR's point of view from holding FAIR up as this great organization that other members worked with all the time.

And the political character of the Tanton-Conner memos — the strategies of infiltration and so on that they discussed — also contributed to the rash of resignations.

IR: Are there good examples of that infiltration strategy at work?

SWARTZ: In the 1980s, while Conner was executive director of FAIR, a woman named Cordia Strom became the legal director. The memos had specifically discussed infiltrating the Congressional staff, and Cordia was their big success story.

She became part of the staff of Rep. Lamar Smith [R-Texas] and then she went to work for the House Immigration Subcommittee. She was in that job through 1996 and was the subcommittee's chief counsel during the big 1996 immigration debate [which resulted in harsh legislation, introduced by subcommittee chairman Lamar Smith, that sharply reduced the rights of legal immigrants].

At some point after that, she went over to the Executive Office for Immigration Review [the administrative appeals arm of the Immigration and Naturalization Service, or ins, that is responsible for making final decisions on such matters as deportations], where she is still employed [as counsel to the director and coordinator for congressional affairs].
After the 2000 election, there was even an [unsuccessful] effort to get Cordia appointed deputy director of the INS.

IR: Then the infiltration strategy was really quite effective?

SWARTZ: Well, these groups had their own person running the House Immigration Subcommittee at a critical moment. Being the staff director of that subcommittee brings tremendous daily influence on Lamar Smith [chairman of the subcommittee from 1994 to 2000] and other Republican members.

The staff director has lots of access to inside information, including confidential and classified information regarding immigration. You have constant dealings with the INS, with the Justice Department and the State Department.

So someone like Cordia, with her ideological bent, has an opportunity to have tremendous influence throughout the Congress and the government, as well as the media.

IR: Yes, similarly, we've found that a woman named Rosemary Jenks, a lobbyist for NumbersUSA, is now working part-time out of the office of Rep. Tom Tancredo.

[Editor's note: Tancredo is a Colorado Republican, chairman of the Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus, and a harsh immigration critic whose Web site carries data from one of Tanton's creations, the Center for Immigration Studies. Tancredo's Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus website links directly to a hard-edged hate group, the Voice of Citizens Together, also known as American Patrol.]

SWARTZ: That's another example of infiltration at work. FAIR and the others have successfully placed their people around folks like Tancredo in Congress.

IR: Are there other important methods that Tanton has employed?

SWARTZ: Another tactic of Tanton's is to turn ethnic groups on each other, to create conflict between different ethnic and racial groups.
One of his big arguments has always been that immigration hurts blacks. FAIR has bought radio advertising on black radio stations to push that vision. A prime example was in Chicago 10 or 12 years ago, when an ad ran basically saying, "You know why you don't have a job? Because some undocumented Mexican came in and stole yours from you."
FAIR also has hired black professionals and has put a lot of effort into building alliances with African-American intellectuals, because the unfortunate reality is that there is a lot of anti-immigrant sentiment in the black community.

When you have dramatic demographic change going on in places like South Central Los Angeles — well, it's the oldest trick in the book. It's called making those who don't have a lot but are making progress feel threatened by those coming after them.

There is some conflict among Latinos, Asians and African Americans competing politically and economically, and this provides fertile ground for the kind of poison that the Tanton crowd has been trying to plant in the African-American community for years — the idea that Latinos in particular, and immigrants in general, are a threat.
Once again, all this is prefigured in the Tanton-Conner memos.
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