Pastors move to withhold/lessen SFC offerings in protest of NAYC - Page 33

Steve Epley · #**321** 09-10-2007, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobDylan

The kingdom of God is not the Boy scouts, and pastors are not "troop leaders". As a minister, I have ONE pastor who has real spiritual authority over me. No office in WEC, elected or appointed, has any biblical spiritual authority over anyone. If they are pastors, they have specific authority in the congregation they pastor. If a minister is out from under their ministry, they may have biblical authority over them as their "father in the gospel". But unrelated to that, the only authority a preacher in WEC has over another preacher is administrative, not spiritual.

A hearty amen.

LadyRev · #**322** 09-10-2007, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobDylan

The kingdom of God is not the Boy scouts, and pastors are not "troop leaders". As a minister, I have ONE pastor who has real spiritual authority over me. No office in WEC, elected or appointed, has any biblical spiritual authority over anyone. If they are pastors, they have specific authority in the congregation they pastor. If a minister is out from under their ministry, they may have biblical authority over them as their "father in the gospel". But unrelated to that, the only authority a preacher in WEC has over another preacher is administrative, not spiritual.

I guess this is why you are "independent". At best, you want only ONE person to have spiritual authority over you, as you have made quite clear above. However, according to SCRIPTURE, those that "rule over us", watching for our souls are plural, meaning more than ONE.

Heb 13:17 -
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

As a licensed UPCI minister, my pastor is not the only one that has spiritual authority over me. There are other leaders within the organization that have spiritual authority as well. They don't function in the same capacity as my pastor and may never exercise their authority but they are still spiritual authorities nonetheless.

An example of this is my district board. Sure they have administrative authority. But if the need arises, they also have spiritual authority.

According to scripture, we are to be subject to the "higher powers" for there is no power but of God and the powers that be are ordained of God. If you don't believe this includes church leadership beyond the pastor, you have serious issues.

Enjoy your so-called "independence". Even if I wasn't part of an organization, I have no desire to be so-called "independent".

deacon blues · #**323** 09-10-2007, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyRev

I guess this is why you are "independent". At best, you want only ONE person to have spiritual authority over you, as you have made quite clear above. However, according to SCRIPTURE, those that "rule over us", watching for our souls are plural, meaning more than ONE.

Heb 13:17 -
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

As a licensed UPCI minister, my pastor is not the only one that has spiritual authority over me. There are other leaders within the organization that have spiritual authority as well. They don't function in the same capacity as my pastor and may never exercise their authority but they are still spiritual authorities nonetheless.

An example of this is my district board. Sure they have administrative authority. But if the need arises, they also have spiritual authority.

According to scripture, we are to be subject to the "higher powers" for there is no power but of God and the powers that be are ordained of God. If you don't believe this includes church leadership beyond the pastor, you have serious issues.

Enjoy your so-called "independence". Even if I wasn't part of an organization, I have no desire to be so-called "independent".

A HEARTY AMEN!

deacon blues · #**324** 09-10-2007, 05:14 PM

Where is the Biblical structure for "Pastor Only" leadership? To me its a nice set up for someone who wants very little accountability. And what is the difference between "administrative" authority and "spiritual authority"? Does that mean, as a member of the UPC, I only have to respect and honor my presbyter, district supt or general supt as far as dues is concerned, etc? These men are elected by the will of the brethren I have chosen to willfully be a part of. If I have to respect the authority of a godless, philandering president, surely I would be required of God to respect and honor the leadership of elected officials, even if I didn't vote for them.

The Apostolic movement is missing something very key: true New Testament church government based on the NT with the offices of apostle, prophet, bishop, deacon, elder as described in the NT, not as we have kind of co-opted some of these offices (e.g. the old pastor wants to semi-retire but hang on to the money so he appoints a younger "pastor" and he becomes "bishop")

BobDylan · #**325** 09-10-2007, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyRev

I guess this is why you are "independent". At best, you want only ONE person to have spiritual authority over you, as you have made quite clear above. However, according to SCRIPTURE, those that "rule over us", watching for our souls are plural, meaning more than ONE.

Heb 13:17 -
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

As a licensed UPCI minister, my pastor is not the only one that has spiritual authority over me. There are other leaders within the organization that have spiritual authority as well. They don't function in the same capacity as my pastor and may never exercise their authority but they are still spiritual authorities nonetheless.

An example of this is my district board. Sure they have administrative authority. But if the need arises, they also have spiritual authority.

According to scripture, we are to be subject to the "higher powers" for there is no power but of God and the powers that be are ordained of God. If you don't believe this includes church leadership beyond the pastor, you have serious issues.

Enjoy your so-called "independence". Even if I wasn't part of an organization, I have no desire to be so-called "independent".

Can you please show me how you interpret Heb 13:17 as defining a district board, or prespytery system, or some other form of heirarchical organizational system? Can you give an example in the bible where a district board has authority over another pastor? The "them" in Heb 13:17 is referring to the many pastors over the several congregations that have been established throughout the world. Paul (or the writer of Hebrews), is instructing the constituents of the various local churches, to be subject to their (plural) own pastors (plural) of said various local congregations (plural), NOT the district board. The use of the "them" (plural) is simply in keeping the proper grammatical consistency in number.

Scott Hutchinson · #**326** 09-10-2007, 05:45 PM

I understand a biblical presbytery was a group of Elders in a local church.
No offense but alot of modern day church govt,doesn't resemble the structure of the first century assemblies.

BobDylan · #**327** 09-10-2007, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

A hearty amen.

pelathais · #**328** 09-10-2007, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobDylan

I agree with both of you on this, technically. However my "argument" is that "Hazelwood" and the WEC don't really even try to exercise this type of authority; at least not from my experience.

The thing you describe with apparent dread really exists closer to home- at the district level.

ChTatum · #**329** 09-10-2007, 06:26 PM

People are dying and going to hell, and THIS occupies our time?

Forgive me, Lord.

pelathais · #**330** 09-10-2007, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChTatum

People are dying and going to hell, and THIS occupies our time?

Sure. Personally, I like the back and forth with brethren. It may keep me from dying and going to hell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChTatum

Forgive me, Lord.

But you probably express a real concern about "time" here. Personally I'm at work and waiting on a book of tickets so I can bill customers for the other ways in which I have "occupied my time."