Apostoic worship??

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Neither is what you described doing in the previous post.

So, relaxing, putting on some music (or even sitting or laying silently), and enjoying the presence of the Holy Spirit is condemned in Scripture?

Contemplating the depths of a spiritual truth or Bible verse is condemned in Scripture?

I think you're just being a paranoid heresy hunter. lol

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by houston

What?

Evidently, you didn't read the entire post. Here it is. Maybe it will answer your incredulous "What?"

Don't allow them to get to you Michael. Something else is happening here. Perhaps they've been tempted to go "charismatic". Perhaps a loved one left the truth and is caught up in one of these "charismatic" cults. When the heat and accusation you're drawing is clearly unjustified... you can be assured that the issue isn't you or the topic at hand. There is some deeper pain, fear, or concern that is crying out to be addressed in your accuser.

Esaias is a generally a good and well intentioned person. Maybe this subject is more serious to Esaias for reasons that we're not aware of. Should he not wish to share them, we should at the very least pray for him. Everyone is entitled to a bad day, and even a bad attitude, every now and then.

Father, I pray that you bless and encourage Esaias. Let Esaias feel your love and grace. Lord, I pray that you minister to any unspoken circumstance that might be troubling Esaias. And Lord, allow Esaias to also see and feel the love and appreciate we have for Esaias being our friend. In Jesus name. Amen.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Nice try, witch. But that stuff doesn't work on me, sorry.

Name calling. Really?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Pentecostal pioneers ALWAYS warned about chasing sensations and sensationalism. They warned against putting a worship experience in front of a BIBLE experience.

I agree with the emboldened. I don't support putting any worship experience in front of or before the Bible, or the experiences described therein.

But what we are seeing is a bunch of spiritually dead dunderheads decrying the integration of any kind of experience beyond what THEY are familiar with, and THEY assume it isn't in Scripture (because they can't possibly be wrong), and condemn anyone who sees something in the Scriptures that they don't see.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The modern "charismatic worship music" movement (IHOP being one of the centers) is what's left of the Vineyard Movement. IHOP used to be a Vineyard church, apparently. Vineyard (especially Toronto Airport Vineyard) promoted music as the next big thing. Tons of music were produced, some of which was actually pretty good musically. But the goal was to create a powerful music-induced "experience of the presence of God".

Vineyard came from the Calvary Chapel group, which was one of the original "Jesus People" groups out of the 60s. Musically and worship-wise they and others were a Christianized alternative to the mind-blowing LSD fueled "acid rock" concerts of the 60s. But both movements had the same goal: to use music to CREATE a powerful, emotional response in the audience.

One of the founders of the Contemporary Christian Worship Music Movement said the Beatles were anointed by God but squandered it, and that God was going to restore that musical anointing to the modern worship movement in the charismatic churches. This was said back in 92 or 93 I think, maybe earlier. He made a big case that the Beatles' music literally drive the crowds into religious ecstasy, and that same anointing was coming to the charismatic worship scene. Vineyard, "the River" movement (RHB, etc), Hillsong, and IHOP are the current phases of that same movement: same people, same theology, same methodology.

And the same results.

Maybe we do well not to use hymns (too many written by Calvinsits and Trinitarians). Maybe we shouldn't use Gospel (too many influenced by worldly jazz and blues). Maybe we shouldn't use any contemporary music (too much influenced by Charismatics).

Give me a break. This is pure Phariseeism.

[houston]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Evidently, you didn't read the entire post. Here it is. Maybe it will answer your incredulous "What?"

Outta here with that mess

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The music of the modern Vineyard-Hillsong-IHOP musicians has its origins in the Jesus People music of the 60s. That was originally a folk-rock style, emulating the music coming out of Laurel Canyon (Jefferson Airplane, Mamas and the Papas, etc etc). Both styles of music were designed to "create an experience", one with the help of LSD, and the other with the help of "the Spirit". Both movements put music and band performance at the CENTER, the "message" whether Jesus or Leary was secondary to "the experience" the audience got as a direct result of "soaking in the musical now" of the event.

Soaking? That's straight out of any Greatful Dead concert. 20 minute improvised songs, "going by the feeling", letting the group including the audience help give direction to the music with eyes closed and everybody in contemplative meditation.... yep, standard 60s acid party methodology.

And the acid party methodology was crafted by researchers such as Ken Kesey, Timothy Leary, " Professor" Owsley, and others - who, it was revealed in Congressional testimony in the 70s, all worked for the CIA.

Statements like those made here only demonstrate that you don't know what soaking prayer is. LOL

I'm sure you read a good book that helped some idiot make a few bucks. But that doesn't mean you know what you're talking about.

Seek God. Learn to allow your time of prayer to be a time of experiencing Him and listening to Him. Allow Him to teach you and show you the way. You'll realize that you're being far too hard on people regarding these issues.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

And those researchers and musicians were simply reinventing the old standard shamanic trance practices found amongst the peyote eating drummers of the Southwest, the ayahuasca drinking shamans of South America, and the yogi transcendentalists of India, the Sufi qawwali musicians of Pakistan, etc.

The same methodologies were used by the Dionysian Mystery initiates of ancient Greece and other Mystery Schools of that time, who likely borrowed them from Babylon.

Straw man much?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Now, good music is good music. And good music is often subject to personal interpretation and preference. Pavarotti can make a grown man weep with the power of his presentation, Fateh Ali Khan (Sufi Muslim religious singer) has been known to literally drive audiences into beating their heads on the stage until they bled and knocked themselves unconscious. Some Byzantine chants will almost propel you into an out of body experience. Men have been driven to war frenzy to kill and die listening to the beating of drums and droning of bagpipes. Fifes and drums steeled the nerves of millions of men standing on line watching the cannonballs scream through the air into their ranks.

Music can be powerful. It can do almost everything drugs and religion can do. It can drive people to throw themselves on grenades to save their friends, it can drive a woman to marry a man, it can drive people into fornication, it can spearhead a revival of holiness, or it can drive people insane, literally. It can even make plants grow or wither.

But NONE of that is what determines the spirituality of worship, or determines what worship is acceptable to God. Music is music. Worship is worship. Music has a place in worship, but if you think "music" as soon as you hear the term "worship" then you do not have a Biblical, apostolic, CHRISTIAN understanding of worship.

You had me nodding in agreement until your last paragraph.

My previous pastor often said many of the same things. However, his conclusion was different. His conclusion was that music predates mankind. It was in heaven long before we were made on earth. And so, man was made to respond to music. That being said, music chosen for worship should be chosen based on its ability to open the soul and touch the spirit. This means that styles of worship music, and practice involving that music (singing, dancing, relaxing, crying, praising, etc.) will be as varied as we are.

I was taught that the key element in worship is... the glorification of God. If you listen to fast paced praise and worship music and dance around the house or the church, let it be to God's glory. If you lay face first weeping and silently whispering prayers, to mellow tones of worship music, let it be to the glory of God. If you listen to "Christian Metal" (which I don't like personally), and "rock-out" like a crazy man in your garage, let it be to the glory of God. If you listen to country Gospel and stomp your feet and clap your hands, let it be to the glory of God. If you prefer silent times of prayer and worship, let it be to the glory of God. If you like olds hymns and just sit and listen with eyes closed as you take in the words, let it be to the glory of God. For whatever doesn't move you into a place beyond the focus on self, it will definitely not move God.

So, rejoice in how you were made. Rejoice in various forms of music and how they affect you. Only allow music to affect you for the good and not for the bad. Some churches have noted the powerful effect music can have on the emotions of humanity and have chosen to prohibit it altogether, believing that a purely cerebral/intellectual approach to praise and worship be contained purely within the confines of the reading of Scripture. This is too extreme a position. Other churches have prohibited anything but a given style of music. This too is too extreme of a position. There must be a balance born of understanding and a sincere desire to glorify God.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

What is "worship"? Is it mood music and the "feelings" that music generates in us? Is it us doing things to psyche ourselves into feeling something? To the point where many will literally pretend to "feel the power/fire/water/wind/anointing" or whatever, and jerk, twitch, jump, roll around, scream, etc as they LARP their way through yet another otherwise anemic fundraising service for the clown in the fancy monkey-suit up on stage?

Worship is translated in the Bible from several terms, the most common being proskeuno. That term is a euphemism for prostration (bowing), but has a more literal meaning describing what a dog does when it licks his master's hand. In other words, worship is an expression in the physical world whereby one expresses their acknowledgment of another's superiority and graciousness. It is both an expression of obeisance, respect, and submission, as well as thankfulness, appreciation, and love.

It is NOT IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM a "feeling", although a Christian's worship ought to flow with great feeling. Worship can stimulate feeling, as well. Yes, you can praise until you start to feel it, and you can pray until you feel it. But the feeling is not worship, nor is the feeling a barometer of the worship as to its acceptability to God, its propriety, or its spirituality.

Right worship may not induce any feeling in you at all. The problem is you, not the worship. And, the wrong worship can induce all sorts of ecstacies, or none at all. Therefore, how you feel is an indication of NOTHING except how you feel. It has no bearing on whether or not worship is good or bad or whatnot.

Worship is also divine service. The priests engaged in certain actions as worship, or divine service, illustrating who their God is and who they served. Under the new covenant, divine service continues although under new covenant forms. That includes such things as prayer, preaching, alms giving, praise and thanksgiving, supporting the spread of the gospel with your resources, assembling with fellow saints, etc. And music (actually, SINGING) has a role in that.

To reduce worship to just the music and how it makes one feel, is not only unbiblical and reductionistic, but selfish.

I agree. Worship is more than any feeling we derive from it. However, as I believe you indicated, experiencing deep emotion and feeling during worship (in its many forms) isn't entirely wrong either. Again, there must be a balance.

Extremes are the hallmark of carnality.