Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Father? - Page 36

Sean · #**351** 11-01-2014, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

These are my questions

Is He who died the same He who Eternally existed as God?

No, God does not die.

Or is HE who died someone OTHER than God?

Yes, the Man, Christ Jesus.

Is He who was tempted the same HE who created everything as God?

Yes, the Father inside of Jesus was tempted

Or is He who was tempted someone OTHER than He who created everything

Jesus was tempted as a Man, but The Father inside of him was tempted along with him. That is why Jesus said.."thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God"....

If Jesus was a Devine/Man as you believe, then Satan not only Tempted God, but he KILLED God.

mfblume · #**352** 11-01-2014, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean

Jesus was tempted as a Man, but The Father inside of him was tempted along with him. That is why Jesus said.."thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God"....

If Jesus was a Devine/Man as you believe, then Satan not only Tempted God, but he KILLED God.

Your concept of oneness is way off. Nothing personal.

James 1:13 KJV Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Esaias · #**353** 11-01-2014, 08:56 PM

If there are two persons, and both are God, then there are by definition two Gods.

Jesus was not "a man who became God". YHVH says in Isaiah there was no God before him, beside him, or after him.

There is YHVH, who at a certain point in time and space assumed a manner or mode of existence as a human being named Jesus. This man Jesus is the entirety of the divine character and person (hypostasis, substance) "engraved" as it were in human nature.

And thus the man Jesus IS IN FACT YHVH, the Supreme and Only Deity.

Analogies fail sooner or later, so we should begin with scripture's statements and CONFESS THEM AS TRUTH whether we understand "how", and then keep all our speculations and thoughts about this Mystery within the bounds of the DOGMATIC DECLARATIONS of the apostles and prophets.

Thus we will be kept from saying stuff like someone "became God". Such a statement is fraught with potential to misunderstand. Jesus became divine only in the sense his human nature was clothed with immortality and perfection. "God became man so man could become God" but ONLY in the metaphorical sense, the idea being God took on frail human nature to change it and glorify it by the divine nature, and thus redeem what Adam lost and then some.

Sean · #**354** 11-01-2014, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Your concept of oneness is way off. Nothing personal.

James 1:13 KJV Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

This implies that God cannot fall into sin(evil) temptation Mike...just look at this...Luke 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God......If Satan was not trying to tempt God, then why did Jesus say that?

Howabout this....Ps 78....Yet they tempted and provoked the most high God, and kept not his testimonies:

Exodus 17:7 And he called the name of the place Massah, and Meribah, because of the chiding of the children of Israel, and because they tempted the LORD, saying, Is the LORD among us, or not?

Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

God cannot be tempted? or God cannot FALL into temptation? Which might it be?

Sean · #**355** 11-01-2014, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

If there are two persons, and both are God, then there are by definition two Gods.

Jesus was not "a man who became God". YHVH says in Isaiah there was no God before him, beside him, or after him.

There is YHVH, who at a certain point in time and space assumed a manner or mode of existence as a human being named Jesus. This man Jesus is the entirety of the divine character and person (hypostasis, substance) "engraved" as it were in human nature.

And thus the man Jesus IS IN FACT YHVH, the Supreme and Only Deity.

Analogies fail sooner or later, so we should begin with scripture's statements and CONFESS THEM AS TRUTH whether we understand "how", and then keep all our speculations and thoughts about this Mystery within the bounds of the DOGMATIC DECLARATIONS of the apostles and prophets.

Thus we will be kept from saying stuff like someone "became God". Such a statement is fraught with potential to misunderstand. Jesus became divine only in the sense his human nature was clothed with immortality and perfection. "God became man so man could become God" but ONLY in the metaphorical sense, the idea being God took on frail human nature to change it and glorify it by the divine nature, and thus redeem what Adam lost and then some.

Good stuff bro. I like this discussion. Lets all put our heads together...Iron sharpens Iron...

mfblume · #**356** 11-01-2014, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean

This implies that God cannot fall into temptation Mike...just look at this...[/COLOR]Luke 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God......If Satan was not trying to tempt God, then why did Jesus say that?

Satan knew more about the picture than some christians. Satan was not tempting GOD in that situation. He was trying to get a MAN to tempt God.

Satan asked if HE WAS THE SON OF GOD. Not if HE WAS GOD. Now, we both believe He was God. But the manifestation AS SON involved humanity.

Jesus responded AS SON OF GOD. Satan was trying to tempt Jesus to TEST GOD. He was not telling satan to stop tempting Himself. He was telling Satan HE WOULD NOT yield to satan's temptations as a man and tempt God as a man.

Jesus spoke from the perspective of a MAN here.

Quote:

Howabout this....Ps 78....Yet they tempted and provoked the most high God, and kept not his testimonies:

Exodus 17:7 And he called the name of the place Massah, and Meribah, because of the chiding of the children of Israel, and because they tempted the LORD, saying, Is the LORD among us, or not?

Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

[COLOR="Red"]God cannot be tempted? or God cannot FALL into temptation? Which might it be?

To TEST someone is to TEMPT them. It is saying God cannot feel the urge to fulfill such a thing. Nothing TEMPTS Him, in other words.

mfblume · #**357** 11-01-2014, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

If there are two persons, and both are God, then there are by definition two Gods.

Jesus was not "a man who became God". YHVH says in Isaiah there was no God before him, beside him, or after him.

There is YHVH, who at a certain point in time and space assumed a manner or mode of existence as a human being named Jesus. This man Jesus is the entirety of the divine character and person (hypostasis, substance) "engraved" as it were in human nature.

And thus the man Jesus IS IN FACT YHVH, the Supreme and Only Deity.

Analogies fail sooner or later, so we should begin with scripture's statements and CONFESS THEM AS TRUTH whether we understand "how", and then keep all our speculations and thoughts about this Mystery within the bounds of the DOGMATIC DECLARATIONS of the apostles and prophets.

Thus we will be kept from saying stuff like someone "became God". Such a statement is fraught with potential to misunderstand. Jesus became divine only in the sense his human nature was clothed with immortality and perfection. "God became man so man could become God" but ONLY in the metaphorical sense, the idea being God took on frail human nature to change it and glorify it by the divine nature, and thus redeem what Adam lost and then some.

But the MAN is only the GOD from the perspective of HIS PERSON. The person of the man is the person of God. The man element was never God, itself, nor ever could be God, though.

Sean · #**358** 11-01-2014, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Satan knew more about the picture than some christians. Satan was not tempting GOD in that situation. He was trying to get a MAN to tempt God.

Satan asked if HE WAS THE SON OF GOD. Not if HE WAS GOD. Now, we both believe He was God. But the manifestation AS SON involved humanity.

Jesus responded AS SON OF GOD. Satan was trying to tempt Jesus to TEST GOD. He was not telling satan to stop tempting Himself. He was telling Satan HE WOULD NOT yield to satan's temptations as a man and tempt God as a man.

Jesus spoke from the perspective of a MAN here.

To TEST someone is to TEMPT them. It is saying God cannot feel the urge to fulfill such a thing. Nothing TEMPTS Him, in other words.

Mike, God was clearly tempted in these passages.....James says "CANNOT be tempted with evil"...or God cannot be tempted into being(falling into) evil.

How else do we explain this "contradiction" in the Bible?

Sean · #**359** 11-01-2014, 09:32 PM

Good stuff Guys!!!

Sean · #**360** 11-01-2014, 10:01 PM

Look folks, I have been reading Bernards book and I think we are all talking about the same thing...

I believe that The Spirit of Jesus is the Father of the O.T.

The Spirit of the Father was indwelling Jesus

I agree with Bernard that the Man, Jesus did not preexist before the virgin birth, but only in the mind/will of God as a plan as he states on page 182...... https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...78677474,d.cGU

Bernard says that Jesus had a human spirit also...I agree. etc. etc.

My only real beef is...Was Jesus "born" God, or did he "ascend" to be God?