Your tithes were already paid.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Let us all remember that Jacob only vowed to give a tithe. There is no record of him every doing it, or of God holding him to the vow.

In fact, after many years of working for Laban, acquiring great wealth in livestock, which would have been a great time to finally fulfill his vow, we never read of Jacob doing so, or of God holding him to it.

That is what they make us do every week to remain saved, Aaron.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Sean

That is what they make us do every week to remain saved, Aaron.

hey, we need examples of "17...the many who market God's message for profit..." as much as "be not wise in your own eyes"

[Russ Kelly]

Originally Posted by Pliny

The property actually DID belong to him. He refused to accept it and GAVE it back. It was his to do with. The kings of Sodom and Gomorrah even said so. Sorry. You are just wrong.




Who taught Abraham to tithe?
Why did Jacob even mention tithing?
Where did it all begin?
Where does the bible specifically say it stopped?


Take Care

1. Who taught Abraham to tithe?
Ans: He was still uncircumcised pagan Abram when he tithed. The Bible does not tell us who taught him to tithe. Since his father was a pagan Babylonian, he probably learned it from his father. The law of the land in Canaan also required spoils of war tithes. How do you answer your own question? Did he ever tithe again? If so, to whom? --- he lived among the Philistines often.

2. Why did Jacob even mention tithing?
Ans: He was a schemer, a scam artist (not yet Israel) making a freewill vow trying to tell God what to do? Not a good example.

3. Where did it all begin?
Ans: The Bible does not say when tithing began? History and archaeology begin it with pagan worship of idols, child sacrifice and temple prostitution. The HOLY tithe of the law begins in Leviticus 27:30-34.

4. Where does the Bible specifically say it stopped?
Ans: Hebrews 7:5, 12, 18. The word "commandment" in 7:18 must refer to the same word in 7:5 and its change in 7:12. If tithing has not stopped, then you must give 23% and the first 10% must go to the Levite servants to the priests. Do you follow this or do you only give pagan spoils of war?

I am still waiting for you to discuss ONE text supporting your viewpoint.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Russ Kelly

1. Who taught Abraham to tithe?
Ans: He was still uncircumcised pagan Abram when he tithed. The Bible does not tell us who taught him to tithe. Since his father was a pagan Babylonian, he probably learned it from his father. The law of the land in Canaan also required spoils of war tithes. How do you answer your own question? Did he ever tithe again? If so, to whom? --- he lived among the Philistines often.

2. Why did Jacob even mention tithing?
Ans: He was a schemer, a scam artist (not yet Israel) making a freewill vow trying to tell God what to do? Not a good example.

3. Where did it all begin?
Ans: The Bible does not say when tithing began? History and archaeology begin it with pagan worship of idols, child sacrifice and temple prostitution. The HOLY tithe of the law begins in Leviticus 27:30-34.

4. Where does the Bible specifically say it stopped?
Ans: Hebrews 7:5, 12, 18. The word "commandment" in 7:18 must refer to the same word in 7:5 and its change in 7:12. If tithing has not stopped, then you must give 23% and the first 10% must go to the Levite servants to the priests. Do you follow this or do you only give pagan spoils of war?

I am still waiting for you to discuss ONE text supporting your viewpoint.

Bro. Kelly I do agree with you about tithing as not being a new testament doctrine. I do hope that people can see some significance to tithing though. I don't think we can just discount every one who did tithe because of technicalities. Abraham done it with spoils of war, Jacob was using it to manipulate, the nation of Israel done it under the law, etc...

From the repetitiveness of the practice their must be some significance. Again, we shouldn't make NT doctrine from these illustrations, but certainly we can glean from them. Similarly, I have taught and recommended early morning devotion from OT illustrations. I can't mandate people's prayer and study habits, but I can show them men that such habits worked for them.

Abraham, Jacob, and the nation of Israel all had in common the blessing of God. I am not saying it was only because they tithed, but it was because of a faith based commitments to God. I have been blessed by tithing. Not because of a legalities, but because God rewards our acts of faith.

I think there is a middle ground to this subject that people miss. We should not throw out a practice that has been so effective throughout scripture until the current. I do think many should make revision concerning how they teach giving. Tithing is a good thing, but it is unprofitable if people do it because of compulsory.

Many will use the argument against tithing as ammunition to not support the ministry of their local church. I think we must be clear that whatever our stand is on tithing, giving and many times sacrificially giving is necessary. I don't feel that you disagree with this, but sometimes it needs to be pointed out.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Russ Kelly

You use the law's description of the HOLY tithe to teach that we should still tithe, but you refuse to accept the Law's end of the tithe as irrelevant (Heb 7:5,12, 18). YOU are the one with no SPECIFIC verse. If you are going to teach and demand tithes from Moses, Nehemiah, Malachi and Jesus ---- then you must use their definition of the HOLY tithe. Your "irrelevant" commens make no sense whatsoever.. Give us a text which supports your view and stick with it. YOU have no texts.

Back at ya.

Have a nice day.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Esaias

From Webster's 1828:
currency

CURRENCY, n. [See Current.]

1. Literally, flowing, running or passing; a continued or uninterrupted course, like that of a stream; as the currency of time.
2. A continued course in public opinion, belief or reception; a passing from person to person, or from age to age; a, a report has had a long or general currency.
3. A continual passing from hand to hand, as coin or bills of credit; circulation; as the currency of cents, or of English crowns; the currency of bank bills or treasury notes.
4. Fluency; readiness of utterance; but in this sense we generally use fluency.
5. General estimation; the rate at which any thing is generally valued.
He takes greatness of kingdoms according to their bulk and currency, and not after intrinsic value.
6. That which is current or in circulation, as a medium of trade. The word may be applied to coins, or to bills issued by authority. It is often applied to bank notes, and to notes issued by government.

Let us assume for the moment that you are correct, that 'currency' did not exist prior to 600 BC. If that were true, then the tithe does not respect currency, since the Law was given almost 1000 years prior to the invention of 'currency'. Therefore, nobody is or can be required to pay tithes of 'currency', such as cash, coin, check, or electronic funds transfer or direct deposit, credit accounts, stocks, bonds, bearrer bonds, bank drafts, bank notes, promissory notes, etc.

Thank you for making our point.

Now, as for the rest of your post, you said that based upon my argument, there was never a need for the invention of currency. I am amazed you would say such a thing. Surely you are smarter than that. Who wants to carry gold nuggets, when they can carry a gold coin, with a government's seal of authenticity and guarantee of value and actual metallic content and purity? And who wants to carry gold coins when they carry slips of paper equivalent in exchange? And who wants to carry slips of paper when they carry a plastic card? And who wants to carry a plastic card when they could just scan their iris, fingerprints, palm print, or do a DNA sample, or retinal scan, or face print? (Or scan an implanted biochip? lol)

Gold and silver, jewels, nuggets, rocks (diamonds, rubies, etc), rings, crowns, shields, etc etc etc were used in barter. Barter means trading one thing for another. If I trade or barter with you for something, and what you give me is something I can for example eat or wipe my behind with, and what I give you is something you can trade or barter for something you can actually directly use, consume, eat, wipe, or whatever, then I gave you MONEY or it's direct equivalent - a means of exchange.

Something that has EQUIVALENT value to an end-use product or service.

But hey lookie here:

Deu 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
Deu 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
Deu 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
Deu 14:25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
Deu 14:27 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.

Wow, who'd a thunk it? When the law of the tithe was given, they had MONEY! Imagine that!

The Greek renders that word 'money' as arguriou, which is defined by my Greek Dictionary as 'CASH'. The Hebrew means 'silver', that is, money. Folks were to sell their tithe, for CASH (actually, SILVER), and once in Jerusalem they were to use that CASH (silver money) to BUY stuff to eat and drink, and they themselves were to EAT the TITHE, along with the Levite.

Why is this not taught as part of the modern 'tithe' doctrine?

Because the modern 'tithe' doctrine is simply not found in the Bible.

If it was, it would have been spelled out, 'thus saith the LORD', chapter and verse. Instead, vague allusions mentioning the word tithe, or mentioning giving, are supplied, with no dEFINITIONS or EXPLANATIONS FROM SCRIPTURE as to WHAT, HOW, WHEN, WHERE, from WHOM and to WHOM, etc.

Ergo, the modern 'tithe' doctrine is a recent, unbiblical invention of men.

Which by the way, I PROVED in a previous post in this thread (that it was INVENTED in the late 19th century) and which was left untouched by any rebuttal.

Coins and Currency
In 600 B.C., Lydia's King Alyattes minted the first official currency. The coins were made from electrum, a mixture of silver and gold that occurs naturally, and stamped with pictures that acted as denominations. In the streets of Sardis, circa 600 B.C., a clay jar might cost you two owls and a snake. Lydia's currency helped the country increase both its internal and external trade, making it one of the richest empires in Asia Minor. It is interesting that when someone says, "as rich as Croesus", they are referring to the last Lydian king who minted the first gold coin.

http://www.investopedia.com/articles...s_of_money.asp


I see you cannot answer the questions I asked either...

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Russ Kelly

1. Who taught Abraham to tithe?
Ans: He was still uncircumcised pagan Abram when he tithed. The Bible does not tell us who taught him to tithe. Since his father was a pagan Babylonian, he probably learned it from his father. The law of the land in Canaan also required spoils of war tithes. How do you answer your own question? Did he ever tithe again? If so, to whom? --- he lived among the Philistines often.

OKAY so you don't know when tithes began or who initiated it. I have answered my own question and it has been posted.


2. Why did Jacob even mention tithing?
Ans: He was a schemer, a scam artist (not yet Israel) making a freewill vow trying to tell God what to do? Not a good example.


So now you presume to tell Jacob why he promised tithing. We should all be careful about presumptions. Not a good answer.


3. Where did it all begin?
Ans: The Bible does not say when tithing began? History and archaeology begin it with pagan worship of idols, child sacrifice and temple prostitution. The HOLY tithe of the law begins in Leviticus 27:30-34.


Please tell me who started tithing and what deity was the first to demand it. If you cannot answer this then all you have is an opinion - no factual data. I would truly be interested in seeing which deity was the first and what data you have supporting the speculation.


4. Where does the Bible specifically say it stopped?
Ans: Hebrews 7:5, 12, 18. The word "commandment" in 7:18 must refer to the same word in 7:5 and its change in 7:12. If tithing has not stopped, then you must give 23% and the first 10% must go to the Levite servants to the priests. Do you follow this or do you only give pagan spoils of war?

Wrong. It does not say tithing stopped. This is your opinion. An opinion you are entitled to hold just as I have the right o my own opinion. We disagree on this.

I am still waiting for you to discuss ONE text supporting your viewpoint.

I am still waiting for you to give ONE text that supports your view.

Like I have said many times. Both sides base their opinion on a principle they see in the scripture. It is to bad the other side refuses to accept the truth about what they believe.

[J.A. Perez]

Originally Posted by Sean

Well bro. Perez, the Catholic Church began the doctrine of tithing during the Church age according to recorded history.

You seem to have no problem with the origins of the Apostolic tithe teachers being Trinitarians.

I got it from Abraham, and he was oneness !

He was prob KJV only also!

[Sarah]

Jesus said you ought to tithe...never did see where he changed his mind. Therefore, I tithe...

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Pliny

The property actually DID belong to him. He refused to accept it and GAVE it back. It was his to do with. The kings of Sodom and Gomorrah even said so. Sorry. You are just wrong.




Who taught Abraham to tithe?
Why did Jacob even mention tithing?
Where did it all begin?



Take Care

Since you have no biblical answer to any of these questions, you cannot make a doctrine out of it for everybody.

And Abraham returned the property because he did not view the king's permission as a valid enough reason to keep it. He knew in the sight of God that was not his property. Thus he did indeed tithe on other people's property. There would have been nothing to tithe otherwise. Why did he not go to his own flocks and tithe from that? Your theory has more holes than swiss cheese.