John3 and Romans2: Part2

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Esaias, I'm enjoying what you are posting. Don, doesn't care. I care, I appreciate you putting in the effort, for us. Don, is like so many others we have held discussions with. Don loves to read his own posts and will never ever change his beliefs. If Jesus preached and David played his harp, Don would still want to believe that people will go to heaven because they're nice, outside of knowing Jesus Christ. So, again, I for one appreciate your posting.

Thank you Esaias and Amanah

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Thank you Esaias and Amanah

Elder, I always love reading your posts,
You're brilliant, witty, and entertaining

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Part 2 -



You presume an awful lot about Enoch.

Genesis 5:22-24 KJV
And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: [23] And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: [24] And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Enoch walked with God, yet you seem to think he had no clue who God was, he was just some heathen who happened to "do right by his conscience"? Please, stop.



See? You are a legalist, who thinks justification is by works instead of faith. Please listen to the Bible:

Romans 4:1-5 KJV
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? [2] For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. [3] For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. [4] Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. [5] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

See? To the legalist, the one who attempts to be justified by works apart from faith, the reward is reckoned as a matter of debt, not grace. So too YOU (being a legalist) think "going to heaven" (what you imagine is the reward) is a matter of DEBT, that God OWES it to somebody. "Get it right enough to go to heaven"? Earn enough money for the taxi fare? Do enough good works to pay the ferryman to get into heaven? Legalism, justification by works, you reckon the reward as a matter of DEBT and not GRACE. Your belief is the very thing Paul was refuting.



You uttered this:



I didn't put any words in your mouth. I didn't even "read between the lines" like you say you are doing with Paul. I just took you for your word, that yes, you are saying some folks can be saved by works without faith.



Please, the ad hominems are unnecessary. YOU SAID YES when you were asked if some people can be saved by works without faith. Now, as to Romans 2 and the Gentiles Paul is talking about, yes they have faith, they are in the new covenant as I already proved over and over again, allowing the Bible to be its own interpreter.



I noticed you haven't answered several of my questions, like "Are you a Calvinist?" which was prompted by your statements about predestination and so forth. Anyway, about Cornelius:

Acts 11:13-14 KJV
And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; [14] Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

Clearly, Cornelius was NOT SAVED until after he heard Peter's preaching. He was going to hear words "whereby" he and his household would be "saved". Therefore, he was not "saved" until after he heard those words. Next?




What is the New Covenant that Christ came to establish? What was His mission?

Luke 1:68-75 KJV
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, [69] And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; [70] As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: [71] That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; [72] To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; [73] The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, [74] That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, [75] In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Abraham was before the Sinaitic covenant. Christ came to fulfill the covenant with Abraham. Here it is again:

Galatians 3:6-12 KJV
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. [7] Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. [8] And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. [9] So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. [10] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. [11] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. [12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

The Bible does not speak of any "Age of Conscience". That is an invention you have imported into the discussion. You know what else the Bible DOES say, though?

Genesis 26:5 KJV
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Don?

You didn’t read this post.

Esaias clearly answered all your questions.

Don, Esaias finished the discussion long ago. Again, you lost the debate.

[Esaias]

Much ado has been made in this thread about "the conscience", yet the individual making so much use of the term, and basing their soteriology around it, never did actually define just what this "conscience" is.

So I present to the reader the following:

Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Conscience
Conscience [N] [T] [E]
Conscience is a term that describes an aspect of a human being's self-awareness. It is part of a person's internal rational capacity and is not, as popular lore sometimes suggests, an audience room for the voice of God or of the devil. Conscience is a critical inner awareness that bears witness to the norms and values we recognize and apply. The complex of values with which conscience deals includes not only those we own, but the entire range of values to which we are exposed during life's journey. Consequently, there is always a sense of struggle in our reflective process. The witness of conscience makes its presence known by inducing mental anguish and feelings of guilt when we violate the values we recognize and apply. Conscience also provides a sense of pleasure when we reflect on conformity to our value system.

There is no Hebrew term in the Old Testament that is a linguistic equivalent for the classical Greek term suneidesis [suneivdhsi"]. The Hebrew term for "heart, " however, is a prominent term of self-awareness in the Old Testament. The lack of a developed concept of conscience in the Old Testament, as we see later in Paul, may be due to the worldview of the Hebrew person. Consciousness of life was of a relationship between God and a covenant community rather than an autonomous self-awareness between a person and his or her world. The only usage of suneidesis [suneivdhsi"] in the canonical section of the Septuagint is in Ecclesiastes 10:20, "Do not revile the king even in your thoughts, or curse the rich in your bedroom, " where it is clearly used as self-reflection in secret (cf. the only verbal variations in Job 27:6 ; and Lev 5:1 ). Rabbinic Judaism and the Dead Sea Scrolls are consistent with the Old Testament in their lack of a vocabulary of conscience.

There are thirty occurrences of suneidesis [suneivdhsi"] in the New Testament (one more possible usage in a variant on John 8:9 ). The verb form (suneidon [suneivdw], sunoida) occurs only four times. The thirty occurrences are almost exclusively Pauline (22, with an additional 5 in Hebrews and 3 in 1 Peter), and eleven of them are in the Corinthian correspondence. The classical use of this word-group for simple knowledge occurs in ac 5:2, 12:12, and 14:6. The Pauline development of conscience as a monitor of actions and attitudes is particularly noted in the Pastoral Epistles, where adjectives like "good" ( 1 Timothy 1:5 1 Timothy 1:19 ; cf. Acts 23:1 ) and "clear" ( 1 Tim 3:9 ; 2 Tim 1:3 ; cf. Acts 24:16 ) are used to depict the conscience as affirming right action. This action, however, is not determined by conscience but by other criteria to which conscience bears witness. Paul's reference to the conscience being "seared" and "corrupted" ( 1 Tim 4:2 ; Titus 1:15 ) indicates that the function of conscience as a capacity for sound inward critique has been thwarted by resistance to God's revealed values. The writer of Hebrews views conscience as bearing a witness of being "clear" or "guilty" ( 9:9 9:14 ; 10:2 10:22 ; 13:18 ). First Peter reflects both the classical use of "awareness" ( 2:19 ) and the Pauline "clear" ( 3:16 ) and "good" ( 3:21 ) pattern.

Much more here ---> https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/conscience/

[Esaias]

An important statement from the above linked article:

"...conscience is consistently imaged as a "witness" to something (cf. Rom 2:15 ; 9:1 ; 2 Cor 1:12 ; 4:2 ; 5:11 ; along with the implications of adjectives such as a "good, " "clear" conscience ). Conscience is not an independent authority that originates judgments. The idea of conscience as a judge or legislator in the sense of originating an opinion is a modern innovation. A witness does not create evidence but is bound to respond to evidence that exists. The conscience does not dictate the content of right or wrong; it merely witnesses to what the value system in a person has determined is right or wrong. In this regard, conscience is not a guide but needs to be guided by a thoroughly and critically developed value system."

[Esaias]

So basically, the individual touting the "conscience" doesn't know what "conscience" actually means, and is using the term incorrectly and inconsistently and undefinedly.

[Esaias]

Romans 2:15 KJV
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;


It should also be pointed out that Paul makes a distinction between the law of God written in the heart, and the conscience. The law is written in the heart, and the conscience "bears witness", that is, their thoughts either accuse or excuse. That is to say, the conscience is the mechanism by which the individual observes whether or not their actions are in accordance with the law of God written in the heart. And therefore, the conscience is not itself "the law of God written in the heart".

Everyone may have a conscience, that is, everyone may have the faculty or ability to determine if their actions are in agreement with or disagreement with a particular ethical and moral standard. But not everyone has the law of God written in the heart, for the conscience to be able to accuse or excuse the individual's choices as being in conformity with the will of God or not.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Romans 2:15 KJV
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;


It should also be pointed out that Paul makes a distinction between the law of God written in the heart, and the conscience. The law is written in the heart, and the conscience "bears witness", that is, their thoughts either accuse or excuse. That is to say, the conscience is the mechanism by which the individual observes whether or not their actions are in accordance with the law of God written in the heart. And therefore, the conscience is not itself "the law of God written in the heart".

Everyone may have a conscience, that is, everyone may have the faculty or ability to determine if their actions are in agreement with or disagreement with a particular ethical and moral standard. But not everyone has the law of God written in the heart, for the conscience to be able to accuse or excuse the individual's choices as being in conformity with the will of God or not.

Excellent.

[Esaias]

A note from the Holman Bible Dictionary:

In 1 Corinthians 4:4 , Paul used the verb from which the word for “conscience” is derived. He wrote: “For I know nothing by myself.” This phrase means “my conscience does not accuse me.” Paul completed the sentence by saying: “yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.” Paul, in short, taught that a pure conscience is valuable, but that Christ is the final standard by which a person is judged.

https://www.studylight.org/dictionar...onscience.html

[diakonos]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

What was considered "right living" to an Aztec? What was considered

Human sacrifice?