Nate Wilson...The Rock Church Sign Team....Beautiful!!!

[Barb]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Sis Barb,

Here is KH's letter for your review. It is obvious in his letter that he places those that are structuring the Tulsa group as out of Gods will, and on a path to destruction, and any that follow them will come to ruin.

In the beginning of all of these discussions following 'the vote', I was quite vocal, but it has grieved my spirit so that I have tried to stay away from it if I can.

But I have a question, Matt...is what was posted by the WPF any different that Bro. Haney's comments?!

"The formation of WPF is an outgrowth of the changing times and directions within the North American apostolic movement and is the result of a constellation of events and decisions which have shaped apostolic direction for some time—some, we fear, for the worse, and ours hopefully for the better."

In other words, "Our way is the better way!!"

And what about this: "WPF is an honest attempt to embrace and work with any and all authentic Apostolics..."

What is an "authentic Apostolic" and who determines who fits the bill?!

And if they are pulling away from the UPCI and no longer embracing and working with them, does this mean they (the UPCI brethren) are no longer considered "authentic Apostolics?!"

See how this thing works?!

I don't know...it's all a mess as far as I am concerned...each one is saying, "Come over here...follow us!!"

I respect and love Bishop W as a fine man of God and always have, but what good is going to come of this?!

If it were in my power to do so, I would discourage anyone from going to Tulsa...this is just how I see it from my house.

[dixonic2]

Originally Posted by Tina

I've noticed that many of the groups I've seen do this aren't even using "signs". They are using motions to the music. They have a few of the words matched up with the right signs in this one-- but most of it is just as CC1 called it.. Dancing... movement to the music.

Nice song... but it bothers me that a lot of these groups say it's "signing" when they aren't even using "signs" that a deaf person would be able to recognize as a word.

I don't know all of the words yet myself, but both my daughters have learned signing as a method to communicate with a friend from another church who is deaf--and they have taught me some of it. My oldest daughter does do interpretation for the deaf when someone attends services who needs it. While watching this video, my youngest daughter said "Mom, most of that isn't ASL signing-- most of it is just moves they've made up to go with the music."

If they are using this as a "ministry" for the deaf-- they need to use the right signs. Otherwise, it's just putting on a show. JMHO.

Just to put in my 2cents....
I can't sing....really, it's painful for the congregation! So I choose to pray, and practice my sign-songs. I do use ASL. But as my college ASL professor said "you DO NOT need to use word for word sign in songs". that's all folks

[Joseph Miller]

Originally Posted by dixonic2

Just to put in my 2cents....
I can't sing....really, it's painful for the congregation! So I choose to pray, and practice my sign-songs. I do use ASL. But as my college ASL professor said "you DO NOT need to use word for word sign in songs". that's all folks

That could be true.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Barb

What is it?!

It is an Italian dish but with no pasta. It is sort of like a bisque. It is sauteed chunks of boneless skinless chicken breast simmered in a sauce that is made with some things I don't know but I do know it had tomoato sauce, heavy whipping cream, mushrooms, carrots, spices ,etc. Biscuits are cooked and placed in the center of a bowl then the thick orange colored sauce and chicken poured over the biscuit.

I made a mistake and accidently only bought whipping cream and not HEAVY whipping cream so tonights sauce was very tasty but more the consistentcy of a soup than a sacue like the first time.

[AmazingGrace]

Originally Posted by Tina

I've noticed that many of the groups I've seen do this aren't even using "signs". They are using motions to the music. They have a few of the words matched up with the right signs in this one-- but most of it is just as CC1 called it.. Dancing... movement to the music.

Nice song... but it bothers me that a lot of these groups say it's "signing" when they aren't even using "signs" that a deaf person would be able to recognize as a word.

I don't know all of the words yet myself, but both my daughters have learned signing as a method to communicate with a friend from another church who is deaf--and they have taught me some of it. My oldest daughter does do interpretation for the deaf when someone attends services who needs it. While watching this video, my youngest daughter said "Mom, most of that isn't ASL signing-- most of it is just moves they've made up to go with the music."

If they are using this as a "ministry" for the deaf-- they need to use the right signs. Otherwise, it's just putting on a show. JMHO.

Amen and thank you! Wonderful post!

[Wink]

Originally Posted by Tina

I've noticed that many of the groups I've seen do this aren't even using "signs". They are using motions to the music. They have a few of the words matched up with the right signs in this one-- but most of it is just as CC1 called it.. Dancing... movement to the music.

Nice song... but it bothers me that a lot of these groups say it's "signing" when they aren't even using "signs" that a deaf person would be able to recognize as a word.

I don't know all of the words yet myself, but both my daughters have learned signing as a method to communicate with a friend from another church who is deaf--and they have taught me some of it. My oldest daughter does do interpretation for the deaf when someone attends services who needs it. While watching this video, my youngest daughter said "Mom, most of that isn't ASL signing-- most of it is just moves they've made up to go with the music."

If they are using this as a "ministry" for the deaf-- they need to use the right signs. Otherwise, it's just putting on a show. JMHO.

I have to take an issue here. a lot of churches i go to dont even have deaf people so what would be the point of whether it is technically correct. I cant read sign language but i can appreciate
the amount of hard work that goes into these songs.

I see these young people all over the country that i dont even know and i see unity, synergy and a true desire to worship and i feel the holy ghost when i watch them. I dont know their backgrounds, homelife and the struggles they face, but i do know they have found a place where they feel wanted and loved and are a part of a team.

from a guest coming in for the first time, they see kids that are working together and are passionate about something besides hanging out in a crowded parking lot smoking dope.

Thank God for pastors that encourage all of these various ministries because you are making a difference in their lives.

Now if i knew how to "sign off" in sign language

[Sister Alvear]

Not a long we had a minister visiting us and he told me he felt the devil while our young people did a song...I just looked at him and said, that is strange I talked in tongues during the song and felt the presence of the Lord...
I think a lot has to do with our own hearts. If we want to condemn whatever it will be impossible to feel God's spirit but if we enter into His courts with prasie rest assured HIS PRESENCE will be there.

I love it and I thank our young people and leaders for practicing hours and hours with them.

[Threads]

Originally Posted by KarenJo

Good point...it's interesting that his web-site is very progressive which is why I am surprised that he is on the Tulsa List....

Good Catch! I have the same questions. They are very progressive and have many programs. They are on abnglobal with they're conference. What is interesting is they will be no different than UPC. They are against the TV thing, but yet you see them, theyre saints plastered all over the internet. I could never understand a preacher that was anti video, but had no problem preaching at places that allowed it. The typical excuse is, well, I didn't know or I have no control over it. So this whole group split really dosn't make any since because your not going to get anything different. that's for sure.

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by CC1

I have always loved dance! It is a powerful way to communicate.

Just a shame Pentecostals have to disguise interpretive dancing as "signing".

I enjoyed the Memphis church, Bro. Black's, because it was true sign. If you have to interpret a sign song or drama for a deaf person...bet your sweet bee bop that it isn't "SIGN".

Had a PW tell me one time the sign drama "wasn't for the deaf but the hearing"...thought I'd fall out of my seat but whatever...

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by IBCrazier2

I would like to know, when doing a sign song, when does it go from worship to putting on a show? I can remember, out of the 20 years of being at the church I am at, haveing deaf people attend our church maybe 10 times! With that being said we have people do sign songs, have sign choirs, etc..... every couple of weeks it seems. I will say at times it can be moving and when from the heart and as worship it can be wonderful, but what is the purpose if it is not for worship or ministry?

What difference does it make? When there is a special singer is it worship or putting on a show? A lot of preaching seems like someone putting on a show too. Worship (really praise, misused a lot by Pentecostals) is US usually in church collectively giving Him the praise. But that is not ALL that goes on in a church service. We don't just praise. We edify one another. We also try to attract sinners to the service so we can preach to them the gospel and hopefully lead them to Christ.

And how do you know that "sign" team is not praising God? You said when yours does it that it is moving....what does that mean? Then you say "as worship" it can be wonderful....then you undo all that by suggesting it is not for worship or ministry...