Obey Them that Rule???

Originally Posted by Michlow

Ok, let me approach this another way. What determines the "who" behind the command to obey those in authority. How is it decided that they are in authority?

If I visit a church, is the Pastor considered my authority? At what point would he become my authority? When I visit a few times? When I sign a membership card? When?

When you submit to him.

When you decide to trust him enough to say "I'm going to follow him as he follows Christ".

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Chan

But GOD did not put them in authority. That's the difference. In the REAL Church, it's God that puts certain men in authority over the saints.



But there is a biblical way of dealing with such things.

When it is contrary to obeying God.

I just have one question for you. How do you (chancellor, personally) determine what is the "Real" church and what is the fake church?

[Whole Hearted]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Actually, the Scripture says, "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves..."

It goes on to say that those in that position will be held accountable for their leadership.

If we are only to go along with the things we agree with, what was the point of Paul using the word "submit?"

There is no submission necessary if we always are in agreement.

There are men in my life I submit to. I do what they tell me even if I don't exactly agree with it, as long as what they say doesn't cause me to violate the Word. And the men I have in my life would never ask me to do something that would violate the Word.

Example:

A couple of years ago, I was invited to rejoin the UPC. I did not want to. But I counselled with my elders, and they told me I should do it. I did not want to, but since I have submitted myself to these men, knowing that I don't always see things clearly, and can't afford to be a law unto myself, I did as they said. I submitted my will to theirs. Everybody needs that in their life.

AMEN BROTHER

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Michlow

I am spinning this off from the Church Twice a month thread, where during a 'Fix Michlow' intervention, Heb 13:17 has been repeated many many times.

As I was thinking about it this morning, I had these thoughts:

I think we would all agree that we obey them ONLY within the bounds of Biblical truth, we are not going to obey if they tell us to do something that is wrong. So, really, if I don't think the thing I am being ordered to do is biblical, why is that rebellion? And if I obey when I DO believe that what I am being told is biblical, then am I really "Obeying" or am I just doing what I think is right anyway?

If it isn't biblical, it *isn't* rebellion. We just need to be sure that what we are wanting to do really isn't biblical.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Actually, the Scripture says, "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves..."

It goes on to say that those in that position will be held accountable for their leadership.

If we are only to go along with the things we agree with, what was the point of Paul using the word "submit?"

There is no submission necessary if we always are in agreement.

There are men in my life I submit to. I do what they tell me even if I don't exactly agree with it, as long as what they say doesn't cause me to violate the Word. And the men I have in my life would never ask me to do something that would violate the Word.

Example:

A couple of years ago, I was invited to rejoin the UPC. I did not want to. But I counselled with my elders, and they told me I should do it. I did not want to, but since I have submitted myself to these men, knowing that I don't always see things clearly, and can't afford to be a law unto myself, I did as they said. I submitted my will to theirs. Everybody needs that in their life.

Regarding your example: Did you feel that joining the UPC was of God? You mentioned what you thought, and you mentioned what the elders thought. What what did God want?

I only ask, because there have been times in my life.... Moving to Georgia for example. I was VEHEMENTLY opposed to moving. And I was extremely angry at my husband for making the decision to move. There was no force on this earth that could have gotten me to agree to the move. However, no matter how angry I was, and how against the whole idea I was, I knew it was God's will.

Now, you can say that I "submitted" to my husband and agreed to the move. But that wouldn't be at all true. I submitted to God, who just happened to be on my husband's side that time

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

A couple of years ago, I was invited to rejoin the UPC. I did not want to. But I counselled with my elders, and they told me I should do it. I did not want to, but since I have submitted myself to these men, knowing that I don't always see things clearly, and can't afford to be a law unto myself, I did as they said. I submitted my will to theirs. Everybody needs that in their life.

That's not always the best thing to do. Just that God will save your hide if you did it in good faith.

Originally Posted by Michlow

I just have one question for you. How do you (chancellor, personally) determine what is the "Real" church and what is the fake church?

The REAL Church is the body of Christ. It is not a man-made organization or denomination or some other such thing. How do I determine what the REAL Church is? I look at what the Bible says it is.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by ILG

If it isn't biblical, it *isn't* rebellion. We just need to be sure that what we are wanting to do really isn't biblical.

ah...there's the rub....no two people seem to agree on what is and isn't biblical.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Chan

The REAL Church is the body of Christ. It is not a man-made organization or denomination or some other such thing. How do I determine what the REAL Church is? I look at what the Bible says it is.

Right. You make the determination. You decide if your spiritual authority is REAL authority in the REAL church.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Michlow

ah...there's the rub....no two people seem to agree on what is and isn't biblical.

Then you need a revelation from God on what to do. In the multidude of counselors there is safety. You are responsible for your own choices. I don't think it's always true that we can shuck our responsibilites to the wind in the name of submission.