What do you think of this?

[Sam]

Are there any reliable statistics (this would not include "evangelistically speaking") that show how Oneness churches grow? What I'm asking is what percentage of people come as sinners getting saved as compared to the percentage of people who come from other churches? Isn't most church growth from folks who switch churches? Not being critical, just wondering.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Sam

Are there any reliable statistics (this would not include "evangelistically speaking") that show how Oneness churches grow? What I'm asking is what percentage of people come as sinners getting saved as compared to the percentage of people who come from other churches? Isn't most church growth from folks who switch churches? Not being critical, just wondering.

Sam this is very much untrue for the church I attend. There are new people coming in all the time. While Pentecostals do move in - and out, the greater problem is long-term retention. They go out the back door - and I think this is a problem not unique to Oneness Pentecostals.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Again, unless there is a memo, a video, etc ... a smoking gun ... this stuff usually boils down to he said, she said. In this case, there is none ...just some poster's recounting of a situation.

The principles remain the same for a pastor or saint ... backbiting is a sin.

In these terrritorial fights ... usually there is backbiting on both sides ... I've seen it enough to know that all it does is lead to disfellowship.

Churches make coordinated efforts all the time to appeal to the saved and unsaved ... it's par for the course ... with their progams, format, signage, etc

The problem would arise if it was based on backbiting ... just as I think that if the person who has lost members ... should not engage in it ... after his number's dwindle ... at the expense of the person who has benefitted from the increase.

When it's all said and done ... the Kingdom of God ... should come first.

There is some REAL hurt that takes place when one pastor deliberately robs another pastor not only of his church members, but often the relationship that existed between that pastor and the saint.

There are cases when the pastor who is doing the "stealing" deliberately sabotages the existing pastor with innuendos and "backbiting" in his attempts to persuade the saints to go elsewhere, and OFTEN it works like a charm.

Are you actually a pastor, or were you just speaking hypothetically earlier?

I agree, the Kingdom of God should come first, and taking saints from other churches, whether by good marketing or underhanded tactics isn't about the Kingdom of God. It's about a man (or woman) increasing their own personal kingdom or fiefdom.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

There is some REAL hurt that takes place when one pastor deliberately robs another pastor not only of his church members, but often the relationship that existed between that pastor and the saint.

There are cases when the pastor who is doing the "stealing" deliberately sabotages the existing pastor with innuendos and "backbiting" in his attempts to persuade the saints to go elsewhere, and OFTEN it works like a charm.

Are you actually a pastor, or were you just speaking hypothetically earlier?

I agree, the Kingdom of God should come first, and taking saints from other churches, whether by good marketing or underhanded tactics isn't about the Kingdom of God. It's about a man (or woman) increasing their own personal kingdom or fiefdom.

And of course, there is the "robbing" of tithes.

We'll agree to disagree at how we view the Church of God.

Obviously, MissB ... the UPC pastor is the victim in your eyes ... sans evidence ... perhaps bias affects your judgment?

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

And of course, there is the "robbing" of tithes.

We'll agree to disagree at how we view the Church of God.

I don't view it any differently, DA. I'm smart enough to understand the concept that the church is bigger than a single assembly.

However, to pretend that the IDEAL does away with the practical issues at hand is either obtuse or naive.

My father pastored for 25 years. When people left he was heartbroken, and NOT over money. Even when people had good, valid reasons, he still hated to see them go. More often than not, the reasons weren't personal, but sometimes they were. It didn't matter. I've seen him agonize over folks because he was afraid another pastor wouldn't understand them or spend enough time with them or even cater to their needs--and sometimes he was right. There have been people backslide because they were led (selfishly) into a church that only wanted to use them for their money or talents, and had no real interest in their eternal good.

Many pastors ROB others of their saints BECAUSE of the resulting increase in their own tithes. THAT'S so much more noble, right? LOL!!!!

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

And of course, there is the "robbing" of tithes.

We'll agree to disagree at how we view the Church of God.

Obviously, MissB ... the UPC pastor is the victim in your eyes ... sans evidence ... perhaps bias affects your judgment?

Whatever. LOL!!! I wasn't even thinking about it from that point of view. My father was at times independent, UPC, AMF, ALJC and was NEVER, at any point, a "company man." I don't have loyalties to an organization, therefore I don't possess the bias you think you perceive.

Anyway, there aren't enough details to determine one way or another in the specific situation presented--there rarely are. In general, though, I agree that it is an "attack" for a pastor or saint to deliberately relocate saints from another assembly for their own personal gain. JMO

And I'm not agreeing to disagree because I'm not done arguing.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I don't view it any differently, DA. I'm smart enough to understand the concept that the church is bigger than a single assembly.

However, to pretend that the IDEAL does away with the practical issues at hand is either obtuse or naive.

My father pastored for 25 years. When people left he was heartbroken, and NOT over money. Even when people had good, valid reasons, he still hated to see them go. More often than not, the reasons weren't personal, but sometimes they were. It didn't matter. I've seen him agonize over folks because he was afraid another pastor wouldn't understand them or spend enough time with them or even cater to their needs--and sometimes he was right. There have been people backslide because they were led (selfishly) into a church that only wanted to use them for their money or talents, and had no real interest in their eternal good.

Many pastors ROB others of their saints BECAUSE of the resulting increase in their own tithes. THAT'S so much more noble, right? LOL!!!!

My dad pastored just as many years, Miss B.... we had divisions internally and he too adjudicated over these type of messes as a district presbyter and leader in the Spanish minsitry ...

The meetings, the witnesses ... the phone calls, the letters, the whining, boohoing, BACKBITING, etc ... wasted a lot of his VALUABLE time ... and, I believe, the time and energy of others ...

because it usually was based on he said, she said.

Usually it resulted in hurt feelings all around ... someone being disfellowshipped ... and fueds that may last for decades ....

ALL FOR WHAT ????

It's time we move on ... and stop being territorial ...

someone goes ... LET IT BE. It hurts, sure ... We're supposded to be big SEASONED boys and girls.

But too much time has been wasted on sorting these issues and USUALLY it results in HIGHLY CHARGED OPINIONS ... not FACTS.

Any pastor who thinks that their sheep have been stolen ... needs to re-evaluate the mission.

AND YES ... LOVE MONEY ... IS THE ROOT OF EVIL ... and does play a role in a lot of this .... some way or another.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

...The meetings, the witnesses ... the phone calls, the letters, the whining, etc ... wasted a lot of his time ... and I believe of others ...

Your father handled it differently than mine did, apparently. My father never brought charges against a single man, nor did he disfellowship any other churches. He would put in a polite phone call when someone came to our church, but never demanded it from other pastors. (Who didn't usually offer it anyway.)

As for being territorial...when you have seen lives damaged by selfish men, it does create some protective feelings on the part of any pastor who cares about the congregation he is supposed to look after. Territorialism is underscored by men who care so much about increasing their personal kingdoms that they spend more time wooing members of other churches than they do evangelizing a fresh harvest.

Are you a pastor?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Your father handled it differently than mine did, apparently. My father never brought charges against a single man, nor did he disfellowship any other churches. He would put in a polite phone call when someone came to our church, but never demanded it from other pastors. (Who didn't usually offer it anyway.)

Are you a pastor?

The meetings and such ... were part of his adjucating problems as district presbyter between pastors who were bickering ... part of the fun, I guess!!!

Dad usually made the polite courteous calls when it came to his local church, also.

Presently, I am not pastoring ... We have put the Spanish ministry on hold for now ... since the wedding announcement and subsequent wedding.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

The meetings and such ... were part of his adjucating problems as district presbyter between pastors who were bickering ... part of the fun, I guess!!!

Oh, I see. That goes with the job, I guess. No fun at all, I wouldn't want to be involved in any of that.

Presently, I am not pastoring ... We have put the Spanish ministry on hold for now ... since the wedding announcement.

Understandable!!!! And a wise decision!

But you have pastored before?