How To Believe in Oneness

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Timmy

If I described the president very differently than you do, or if I call him Dubya and you call him President Bush, would that mean you and I have different presidents (assuming you're a U.S. citizen)?

What if a pagan says he worships Diana and that Diana is the same God you worship, but just has a different name and description...are you worshiping the same God?

Unfortunately this is not a biblical scriptural discussion. It's a philosophical discussion

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

What if a pagan says he worships Diana and that Diana is the same God you worship, but just has a different name and description...are you worshiping the same God?

Unfortunately this is not a biblical scriptural discussion. It's a philosophical discussion

OK, but I'm not the one that brought it up!

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Im only going to get into specific areas of theology and what the bible says, not speculations.

What matters is what the bible says and who and what God is. Truth is truth, not because any individual or organization says so.

Is God a Trinity of persons? If that is what you believe you are welcome to argue it and address counter arguments. Is God a single person? If you deny that you are welcome counter it or ask specific theological scriptural questions. Im not interested in arguing the emotions of "So...do you say I am going to hell because I don't baptize x y and z?

Okaaaaay. I don't feel the need to argue those emotions, either. But some oneness folks (maybe not you?) do say I will go to hell if I'm baptized "in the titles" (as specified by Jesus), or for any number of other reasons that don't make sense. It's a pretty emotional thing to consider.

Do I believe God is a Trinity of persons? I've said before that I see some truth to both sides of the issue. I see no reason for either side to say that the other side is totally wrong. God has "oneness" characteristics, and He has "threeness" characteristics.

That is Bible!

What is not in the Bible is that the silly little word "person" should cause such a fuss! Or is it?

[OGIA]

Originally Posted by Timmy

So, by "anything else" were you referring only to the possible things man might believe about God's nature? I.e., my example about rapists and murders didn't apply?

I'm sorry, but I'm not following you.

OK, let's say you're right. God really, really cares about what word we use to describe each of His three main manifestations. Doesn't mind if we call them "offices". He's cool with "manifestations". "Titles" is fine. The manifestations can talk with each other. One of the offices can send another one as the Comforter. Two of the titles can have different desires. God can be His own Father. Just don't dare say that that Father and that Son are two persons!

Is that about right?

No, that's not even close to right. I'm not talking about what words are used to describe Him. I'm talking about the truth of His nature that we call "oneness" -- His One, indivisible nature of Spirit. THAT is what is important to Him, because from that comes the truths we profess and the answers to the questions you (and so many trinitarians) have.

That's not a name I use for Him.

So, then, what god are you talking about that you worship? I'm not getting a clear answer. I know of about a dozen gods whose name I could call besides Allah, but I'd prefer you just tell me yourself.

Some say that the Muslims worship a false god named Allah, some say it is the same God as we worship, with a different name. I dunno, haven't really studied that issue much.

I would hope you either know or will find out very quickly whether that's true or not.

If I described the president very differently than you do, or if I call him Dubya and you call him President Bush, would that mean you and I have different presidents (assuming you're a U.S. citizen)?

No, but your analogy fails, because we're talking about ONE PERSON, not three.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by OGIA

I'm sorry, but I'm not following you.

Let's recap, then.

I asked, "Does God really care? I just can't see Him getting bent out of shape over it", referring back to "why does it matter so much if we use the word 'person' or 'office' or whatever?"

You answered, "I've come to believe He cares as much or more about this than anything else. It is, as we know, the greatest commandment."

Thinking (wrongly?) that you really meant "anything else" that God may get angry about, I wondered if you thought God cared about our understanding of His nature at least as much as He cared about how we treat each other. I gave the extreme example of rapists and murderers.

Now, that's when you said I put words in your mouth. True, you didn't say anything about rapists and murderers. Then I tried to see if what you really meant when you said "anything else" would not go that far, but would only include things pertaining to His nature.

Or did you literally mean "anything else"? Like rape and murder?

Just trying to understand.

[OGIA]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Let's recap, then.

I explained. It's not about words. It's about His nature. The greatest commandment is about His nature --- His oneness.


Now, how about addressing the issue of the name of the god you worship.

[stmatthew]

Gentlemen,

Please remember as you discuss this topic that you are on a Oneness, Apostolic forum. While we do encourage discussion, we will not allow the ridicule of those that believe or teach the Apostolic, Oneness message.

Carry on.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by OGIA

No, but your analogy fails, because we're talking about ONE PERSON, not three.

Not sure we're talking about the same thing, here. It's kind of off topic, I guess, but I was referring to the fact that Christianity and Islam have different names for God and different descriptions of God, and whether that proves that they worship literally two different Gods.

How does the president analogy not apply?

Oh, but it's not off topic, is it? You believe that, since Trinnies describe God differently, they worship a different God! That's why you want me to tell you my God's name! You may think I can't give Him a name, because of some weirdness with my (or Trinnies') belief that God is three Persons, and Three Persons can't have a name! Something along those lines?

Well, my God has many names. Jesus, Jehovah, I Am, Emmanuel, etc. Yes, Jesus is one of His names. Jesus is God. The Son is God. (Trinnies believe that, you know!) The Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God. So, do you and I worship the same God or not?

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Oh, OK! I guess we're pretty much on the same page, then. There is truth in both sides, and a major error (on both sides) is claiming absolute truth, to the exclusion of the other side. Is that about right?

Yes

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Gentlemen,

Please remember as you discuss this topic that you are on a Oneness, Apostolic forum. While we do encourage discussion, we will not allow the ridicule of those that believe or teach the Apostolic, Oneness message.

Carry on.

Joelel I believe he is speaking to you?