John MacArthur: POLYTHEIST? - Page 4

Michael The Disciple · #1 08-20-2010, 02:49 PM

Macarthurs view is that of tri theism. Three Gods. He and the others try not to make it so. Yet they cant help it. Its the nature of the doctrine. If they were Oneness they would not be attacking us.

Jason B · #2 08-20-2010, 08:47 PM

Heres a bump of the original post of this thread minus the calvinist disclaimer. Good grief.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

I was listening to a John MacArthur audio earlier today and he made a statement to the effect that:

"The council of the Trinity decided who would be redeemed before the creation of the world."

I like alot of MacArthur's stuff, though there are some areas of disagreement. And I personally don't think that trinitarians are going to hell simply because their trinitarians, anymore than oneness are going to hell because their oneness.

Those things said, when I often hear trinitarians adamently deny they worship "3 gods" and sling mud on oneness people by saying we are sladering them, offering strawman arguments, and the such like. They normally ATTEMPT to choose their words carefully so as not to use the words "seperate" and "beings" and the such like when debating/discussing with a oneness person, BUT when the arena is not a godhead debate they make statements such as this, which to my mind are completely irrational and foolish...IF you want to claim to be strictly monotheistic.

How can a trinitarina TRULY say the believe "Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God is one LORD" and at the same refer to the "one God" as a COUNCIL who decided TOGETHER who would be the elect (saved) before the creation?

seekerman · #3 08-20-2010, 08:54 PM

Rule of thumb.....

Trinitarians believe in three Gods, oneness believe in two Jesus'.

Praxeas · #4 08-20-2010, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seekerman

Rule of thumb.....

Trinitarians believe in three Gods, oneness believe in two Jesus'.

No, Oneness believes in one Jesus. One person not two

Rule of thumb addendum...seekerman believes in 2 gods, one is God and the other is like him but not the original

pelathais · #5 08-21-2010, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

I was listening to a John MacArthur audio earlier today and he made a statement to the effect that:

"The coucnil of the Trinity decided who would be redeemed before the creation of the world."

I like alot of MacArthur's stuff, though there are some areas of disagreement. And I personally don't think that trinitarians are going to hell simply because their trinitarians, anymore than oneness are going to hell because their oneness.

Those things said, when I often hear trinitarians adamently deny they worship "3 gods" and sling mud on oneness people by saying we are sladering them, offering strawman arguments, and the such like. They normally ATTEMPT to choose their words carefully so as not to use the words "seperate" and "beings" and the such like when debating/discussing with a oneness person, BUT when the arena is not a godhead debate they make statements such as this, which to my mind are completely irrational and foolish...IF you want to claim to be strictly monotheistic.

How can a trinitarina TRULY say the believe "Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God is one LORD" and at the same refer to the "one God" as a COUNCIL who decided TOGETHER who would be the elect (saved) before the creation?

PS-how does that work, before creation, mankind has not been created yet, does the "holy trinity" draw straws, a names out of hat, what? On what basis is one choosen to inherit eternal life, and the other eternal damnation?

Here's what I think of that doctrine

I can't speak for MacArthur, but that terminology is actually Biblical. The problem appears to be that you heard "council" when MacArthur was no doubt saying "counsel."

I'm willing to bet just from what you've said, that the text for MacArthur's message (at least this portion of it) was from the First Chapter of Ephesians. Ephesians 1:1-12, speaks of the "predestination" of God's "elect.' It is a portion of Scripture that a lot of Evangelical ministers will often turn to when preaching about predestination.

Read the passage again, especially Ephesians 1:11, and see if that doesn't help to settle everyone's stomach. I doubt very much that even MacArthur views the "Godhead" as a "council."

"In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will."

Ephesians 1:11

Jason B · #6 08-21-2010, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelathais

I can't speak for MacArthur, but that terminology is actually Biblical. The problem appears to be that you heard "council" when MacArthur was no doubt saying "counsel."

I'm willing to bet just from what you've said, that the text for MacArthur's message (at least this portion of it) was from the First Chapter of Ephesians. Ephesians 1:1-12, speaks of the "predestination" of God's "elect.' It is a portion of Scripture that a lot of Evangelical ministers will often turn to when preaching about predestination.

Read the passage again, especially Ephesians 1:11, and see if that doesn't help to settle everyone's stomach. I doubt very much that even MacArthur views the "Godhead" as a "council."

"In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will."

Ephesians 1:11

Perhaps Pel. The message was on Ephesians 1, however, with the context he used, I tend to think He MEANT "council", though I'd have to listen to it again, and I'm not in the mood at the moment.

One reason that I lean towards "council" is MacArthur is believes in a VERY defined godhead of persons. He has made statements and written things that I am just amazed by. I have been reading his book on Romans ch. 1-8 (540 pages) and he has made several statements along the same tritheistic lines.

I'm not posting this in ill will or anti Macarthur. I like his stuff enough to use in my sig line.

Jason B · #7 08-30-2010, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelathais

I can't speak for MacArthur, but that terminology is actually Biblical. The problem appears to be that you heard "council" when MacArthur was no doubt saying "counsel."

I'm willing to bet just from what you've said, that the text for MacArthur's message (at least this portion of it) was from the First Chapter of Ephesians. Ephesians 1:1-12, speaks of the "predestination" of God's "elect.' It is a portion of Scripture that a lot of Evangelical ministers will often turn to when preaching about predestination.

Read the passage again, especially Ephesians 1:11, and see if that doesn't help to settle everyone's stomach. I doubt very much that even MacArthur views the "Godhead" as a "council."

"In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will."

Ephesians 1:11

Pel, I listened to it again. There is no doubt he says "council" in fact he says it plural "councils"

"How does church growth theory fit into that?
Soverign election has already been determined, it has determined who will be saved, and constitute the regenerate church. That was done in the councilS of the trinity before time began."

gty.org sermon #gty114 @ the 1:04:00-1:03:00 mark

I guess you can quit ripping me over my reaction now.

pelathais · #8 08-30-2010, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Pel, I listened to it again. There is no doubt he says "council" in fact he says it plural "councils"

"How does church growth theory fit into that?
Soverign election has already been determined, it has determined who will be saved, and constitute the regenerate church. That was done in the councilS of the trinity before time began."

gty.org sermon #gty114 @ the 1:04:00-1:03:00 mark

I guess you can quit ripping me over my reaction now.

If he is teaching from Ephesians 1, then I would lean very heavily on the idea that he said, "counselS of the Trinity..." Suppose we could ask him.

I'm not trying to defend this particular view, just saying that there is a bit of a difference here in the extremities to which a person might go with their rather inherently tri-theistic terminology. This is a big reason that I personally don't use the word "Persons" to describe the nature of God.

God's nature is complex, particularly in the ways in which we as humans perceive Him; however He is still One.

pelathais · #9 08-30-2010, 07:13 PM

MacArthur is (was!) recorded in a video with text here:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

This is the from the Google cache of a conference where he was apparently a keynote speaker. Here he says, "Sovereign election has already determined who will constitute the redeemed church. That was determined in the counsels of the Trinity before time began."

It is a common term used quite a bit by Evangelicals and others:

The Archbishop of Canterbury:
http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/1968

Wayne Gruden (a popular writer and theologian):
http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

J.C. Ryle (Victorian Era Bishop of Liverpool whose books are still popular):
http://rediscoveringthebible.com/Ryle14vv12-17.pdf

CC1 · #10 08-30-2010, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelathais

MacArthur is (was!) recorded in a video with text here:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

This is the from the Google cache of a conference where he was apparently a keynote speaker. Here he says, "Sovereign election has already determined who will constitute the redeemed church. That was determined in the counsels of the Trinity before time began."

Any transcripts available of these "cousnels of the Trinity before time began"? Sounds interesting!