The Wizard Behind the Curtain

[Margies3]

Originally Posted by Michael

God will never lead someone to a trinity church....Only Sam will.

Good grief. So you know everything little thing that God will do? I'm sorry. I just get tired of this sort of attitude. I guess you must be amongst the very small group who are going to be in Heaven for eternity, eh?

You know, I very rarely ever post this sort of come-back to someone. Maybe I'm just cranky tonight.......... oh well, I think I'll leave it here anyway. I saw that you put the smiley at the end. So I am really hoping that that was your attempt at humor. If so, I apologize for jumping on your case.

[Hoovie]

Margie, I think Mikey is messin with us!

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Margies3

Good grief. So you know everything little thing that God will do? I'm sorry. I just get tired of this sort of attitude. I guess you must be amongst the very small group who are going to be in Heaven for eternity, eh?

You know, I very rarely ever post this sort of come-back to someone. Maybe I'm just cranky tonight.......... oh well, I think I'll leave it here anyway. I saw that you put the smiley at the end. So I am really hoping that that was your attempt at humor. If so, I apologize for jumping on your case.

relax, Margies3, I was not offended by that.

[Margies3]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Margie, I think Mikey is messin with us!

Originally Posted by Sam

relax, Margies3, I was not offended by that.

Ok, thanks, guys, for the correction. Mike, please accept my apologies. Must be those female hormones kicking in. Oh wait! I'm too old for hormones. Those are for 20 year olds, right? LOL Maybe I'm just overly tired. Good night.

[CC1]

Algae,

I am getting ready for church so have only had time to read your posts and just a few of other peoples responses.

First of all your family's history has made me once again so thankful for being raised in a good Christian home. My dad was such a godly man I had no idea until after he died when I was 13 that in his younger days he had been a drinker who got into fights in bars, etc. I just could not imagine it.

I fully understand your disillusionment with a lot of what goes on in church. There is plenty to be upset about. However anytime human beings are involved there is going to be a lot of imperfection.

That imperfection includes duplicty, selfishness, ignorance, deceit, lying, stealing, etc. However within one of these imperfect institutions there is almost always people who are good, honest hearted, and doing their best to do what is right.

What I fear about your current situation is that it is something I have seen quite a bit in my 51 years of living and right now am dealing with it in one of my own grown children. It seems that since there are no perfect churches with perfect people in them you just are not going to go to any. I know and respect your intellect so I have to believe that deep down you know this is not right.

We have a responsibility to put ourselves in the best possible church so that we can submit to be taught from the five fold ministry. However no church is perfect and we must realize that going in.

I believe the enemy of our souls uses the faults of the church to cause bitterness and weariness where he can and then those things to cause people to give up on church. Satan does not want you to be spirtually fed. You have to remember that is his goal.

Bottom line is that you find the best church you can with a pastor you believe is upstanding (although still impefect) and plug yourself in. Pray for the imperfect saints and win new honest hearted ones to outnumber the ones who are just playing church and not really living christian lives.

[ILG]

QUOTE=CC1;959666
I fully understand your disillusionment with a lot of what goes on in church. There is plenty to be upset about. However anytime human beings are involved there is going to be a lot of imperfection.

Hey CC1. Thanks for the feedback. I think you may have missed the irony in my post. The irony is in how people say the church is so much better than "the world" and then when things aren't perfect, people fall back on the "well we're only human". Well.....the church holds itself to a higher standard and then, in my experience, falls far short. So, I am not seeing church attendance to be gaining me anything at this point in my life. That's not to say some people don't gain anything. I am not saying people should quit. I'm just saying I am not seeing the point for myself so much. It is a effort in frustration.

What I fear about your current situation is that it is something I have seen quite a bit in my 51 years of living and right now am dealing with it in one of my own grown children. It seems that since there are no perfect churches with perfect people in them you just are not going to go to any. I know and respect your intellect so I have to believe that deep down you know this is not right.

I appreciate your compliment about my intellect, but I don't "know" that not going to church isn't right. It feels right to me. In fact, it feels great except for I miss the idea of community. (I say "idea" because the experience of community always fell far short.) Will I never return to church? I'm sure I will visit on occasion. I don't know that I will ever be a member anywhere or attend regularly again. What are you afraid of with your grown children not attending? My only fear about my grown children is that their children will grow up with a value void, but perhaps there is a better way to fill that value void. So far, church has not impressed me with filling value voids. God has done a pretty good job, but the men behind the curtains just keep pulling switches and making things roar with electrical equipment. And when you say something to them they get all offended like you should know better. They too often say and do not do.

Anyway CC1, thanks. I feel content for the first time in many years. I am failing to see how that is a bad thing.

[Sweet Pea]

ILG - I feel bad for the pain you experienced while in the ministry. I wish there was a way to "make it better" - but realize that there is nothing any of us can do.

I do have one question: In your refusal to go to church, or rather to become a part of a "community" or "body" of believers, what do you do with the scripture that says "forsake not the assembling of yourselves together" ?

Just curious. May God bless you!

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea

ILG - I feel bad for the pain you experienced while in the ministry. I wish there was a way to "make it better" - but realize that there is nothing any of us can do.

I do have one question: In your refusal to go to church, or rather to become a part of a "community" or "body" of believers, what do you do with the scripture that says "forsake not the assembling of yourselves together" ?

Just curious. May God bless you!

Well there's a few things that could be done to explain it differently than is popularly explained. One explanation is in how a person defines forsaking an assembling together. Another is that the male Jews were required to go to the temple once a year and that's all. For me, it's basically irrelevant. I don't view this in the context it was once taught and I don't take the Bible so literally. Of course, if a person believes that it means you have to go to church three times a week or you are betraying God, then, by all means, a person wouldn't want to skip church or not be a member somewhere.

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by CC1

Algae,

I am getting ready for church so have only had time to read your posts and just a few of other peoples responses.

First of all your family's history has made me once again so thankful for being raised in a good Christian home. My dad was such a godly man I had no idea until after he died when I was 13 that in his younger days he had been a drinker who got into fights in bars, etc. I just could not imagine it.

I fully understand your disillusionment with a lot of what goes on in church. There is plenty to be upset about. However anytime human beings are involved there is going to be a lot of imperfection.

That imperfection includes duplicty, selfishness, ignorance, deceit, lying, stealing, etc. However within one of these imperfect institutions there is almost always people who are good, honest hearted, and doing their best to do what is right.

What I fear about your current situation is that it is something I have seen quite a bit in my 51 years of living and right now am dealing with it in one of my own grown children. It seems that since there are no perfect churches with perfect people in them you just are not going to go to any. I know and respect your intellect so I have to believe that deep down you know this is not right.

We have a responsibility to put ourselves in the best possible church so that we can submit to be taught from the five fold ministry. However no church is perfect and we must realize that going in.

I believe the enemy of our souls uses the faults of the church to cause bitterness and weariness where he can and then those things to cause people to give up on church. Satan does not want you to be spirtually fed. You have to remember that is his goal.

Bottom line is that you find the best church you can with a pastor you believe is upstanding (although still impefect) and plug yourself in. Pray for the imperfect saints and win new honest hearted ones to outnumber the ones who are just playing church and not really living christian lives.

I appreciate this post so much, CC1. You just have a way with words! I hope ILG will take them to heart. Not only do we have ourselves to think of, but we have a HUGE responsibility to our children and grandchildren. Without God and the church, where would we be?

[coadie]

Originally Posted by ILG

I remember being in the world before the UPC. I felt the injustice of many things and saw the structure of the world and how it favored some over others and gave perks to some over others that didn't deserve it, that perhaps slimed their way up, or, often were simply born into their silver spoon status.

I was raised poor, with an alcoholic father who had been the illegitimate son of a 16 year old raped girl. My Dad was later adopted by a divorced man who married my grandmother. They had four more children. They worked a farm and all slept in the upstairs of a house that grew huge icicles on the inside in the winter and dripped on them in the spring. They divorced after my Dad moved out because my grandfather was having an affair and threw my aunt on the floor when she confronted him about it.

My mother grew up materially poor in a family of 14 children. They ate molasses sandwiches and slept many to a bed, covered with coats and blankets for warmth. My mother gave her cousin an empty spool of thread for her birthday. My grandfather was a commerical seasonal fisherman. My grandmother used to cry in the outhouse because she had so many children and did not want anymore, but the Catholic church did not believe in birth control and my grandfather always said "God will provide".

Compared to my parents, I grew up well off, in a house with wood heat that didn't drip on me. We had a real toilet that flushed. I got two new outfits for school every year and if we were lucky, on our back to school trip, we were allowed a cheesburger at McDonalds. (No happy meals as they were too expensive.) We ate venison and fish and garden produce.

My mother used to sing in bars when I was young and us kids often went. I talked to many a drunk on a barstool. My brother and I would stick our arms up into the pool table and pull the balls out because we didn't have any quarters to play pool. My Mom and Dad would fight as my Mom would want to go home after a while and my Dad would want to stay. My Dad used to give me peppermint schnapps on the rocks when I was young. I got drunk first at age 12 and continued the pattern until I was 19.

I saw much injustice in the world. I saw how people who were born into perfect (to me) families had it knocked. I saw how they knew the rules and they knew how to use them to their advantage. I saw how they got all the perks at school and how they were popular and how they got good grades, nice clothes, cars, money and perks.

I did some of that stuff. But I had to work very hard for whatever I got, because it was never handed on a silver platter. I had to learn the rules for myself and earn my keep.

That is a lot of information about a home. My mother won her younger sisters to Jesus. They and my mom won the youngest boys. The youngest boys won the older sons. The older sons started Sunday afternoon prayer meetings and eventually won grandad and about 40 others in a small community to Christ. I don't think teenage boys are known for small group prayer meetings. Grandad was a violent drunk. I never heard a word about it from my mom. she took the brunt of it I found out but she forgave him.
Grandad became a big soul winner after age 54 repentence. I learn about this stuff at funerals because my mother only repeated some of the worst stuff in prayer to the Heavenly Father.
Bad to the bone grandad has nearly 40 sons, daughters sons in law grand children and descendents in full time ministry, missionary work or teaching at bible colleges.. There are over 200 offspring. Grandad would after conversion visit bars, beer joints and saloons and witness.

There is healing in the blood.