Reaching tentacles of the Social Justice movement

[kindofbelieve]

Originally Posted by ILG

I agree that we need social justice. It's just that it probably should not be government sponsored except for police and judges and the like. I think social programs are mostly a waste.

Exactly... except that I don't think there should be any government sponsored anything... if we as normal people did what the government does -- we'd be considered criminal.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by kindofbelieve

Exactly... except that I don't think there should be any government sponsored anything... if we as normal people did what the government does -- we'd be considered criminal.

Well, yes. Take Bernie Madoff, for example. He is sitting in prison for his Ponzi scheme, but the government has bigger ponzi scheme's than Bernie had.

However, the government has to do some things. I don't think we can be government-less. How much government we should have....I am not sure. But way less than we do now.

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by ILG

I agree that we need social justice. It's just that it probably should not be government sponsored except for police and judges and the like. I think social programs are mostly a waste.

I mostly agree.

However, we are no longer a communal society where we take care of our own. We are a world of cities, a world of corporations and profits. If completely unchecked, the powerful can dominate and oppress the powerless. Speaking for justice on a governmental level doesn't mean once must support policies that don't make sense or that turn charity into an obligatory matter (though the Bible certainly had obligatory governmental measures to care for the poor). It does mean to be a voice of justice on each issue, no matter the political grandstanding behind the issues.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

I mostly agree.

However, we are no longer a communal society where we take care of our own. We are a world of cities, a world of corporations and profits. If completely unchecked, the powerful can dominate and oppress the powerless. Speaking for justice on a governmental level doesn't mean once must support policies that don't make sense or that turn charity into an obligatory matter (though the Bible certainly had obligatory governmental measures to care for the poor). It does mean to be a voice of justice on each issue, no matter the political grandstanding behind the issues.

Well, yes, I suppose that could happen and probably needs to in the environment we are in today (meaning big government). But, I think we are no longer a communal society because of this. Which came first the chicken or the egg and would people be more communal with less government?

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by ILG

Well, yes, I suppose that could happen and probably needs to in the environment we are in today (meaning big government). But, I think we are no longer a communal society because of this. Which came first the chicken or the egg and would people be more communal with less government?

Great question. I believe social science theorists would say it's a "both/and" answer.

We aren't a communal society because of things like the Industrial revolution that created massive cities. We aren't a communal society because of population growth. We aren't a communal society because of globalization. We aren't a communal society because slowly people stopped living in a physical small community, and so the ways of that small community were adapted.

[coadie]

Originally Posted by Aquila

We need to be careful not to paint with a broad brush here. Remember, social justice movements brought us women's rights to work and vote, vanquished child labor, brought us safety standards in the work place, brought us liveable wages, and most importantly... the weekend. lol

Actually the deals that hampered child labor had 3 issues among others.

It was incredibly dangerous for kids doing certain jobs adults could do more salely
Adult males wanted unions so that companies wouldn't let children undercut their wages. The unions protect the adults and not the kids.
Companies actually were tired of limits with children. They had no education and just worked. Groups having nothing to do with unions sought laws to require kids go to school and have an education and learn sharper skills.

[Aquila]

If one researches the social justice movments of England and the late 1800's in the United States, you'll find they were inspired by Christians with a national vision of social compassion. Sadly, secularists took their vision and twisted it into the monstrocity you see today. Labor unions actually had a chaplain and set Memorial Day meetings where they gathered for the spiritual good of the American worker.

[Dimples]

coadie, what profession are you in that allows you so much time to be on the internet?

[coadie]

Socialists characterise full socialism as a society no longer based on coercive wage-labour, organized on the basis of relatively equal power-relations and adhocracy rather than hierarchical, bureaucratic forms of organization in the productive sphere. Reformists and revolutionary socialists disagree on how a socialist economy should be established.

Social justice is adding several doses of coercion to socialism.

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by coadie

Social justice is adding several doses of coercion to socialism.

How so?

And if something is unjust (ie, slavery), should legislative enforcement be something we'd support?


Is all coercion bad?