More on Housechurches(less on House-a-God's)

[shag]

Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop

One thing for sure...I am NOT going to a HOUSE CHURCH and eat casseroles afterward!
I hate casseroles too & Hoovie, you are mighty right! They cannot afford a BISHOP! LOL
Of course - most of them don't believe in Bishop's except the one that is sitting in the big easy chair with his Hawaiian shirt on - teaching them on the fruit of the Spirit and then how to speak in tongues. Still gives me the Hibby Jibbys!

Im thinkin you're ate plum up with something, I'm just not sure what.

And to top it off you dont even like casseroles? Come on!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop

Gives me the hibby jibbys! You know...there have always been house churches and there always be - but I don't have to go to one and I am not going to one because I have seen how they get off course and start prophesying and then the super spiritual ones try to dominate the younger ones in the faith with prophecy and super spirituality.
I along with my pastor Jentezen Franklin - rescued my youngest son from one that was fastly becoming very cultic. He is well balanced today and leads in a great mega-church with over 10,000 people on fire for Jesus Christ and I am thankful that GOD delivered him from a "house church."

Historically speaking, the greatest damage done by houses of worship getting off course has been done in organized religion. For example, Roman Catholicism, Mormonism, Seventhday Adventist, Christian Science, Islam, and the list can go on and on.

With a house church that gets off course its what... a house of 12-15 people and it will usually fizzle out in six months if it goes way too off course. In a way, house churching would have prevented the massive cults from spreading across the world. The fastest growing revivals are happening in China and countries where house churching is essentially the only viable option.

For me the question goes back to "biblical church life". Paul illustrated what our meetings are to be like and emphasized that those directives were the "commandments of the Lord". Do we do church the "bible" way or the "popular" way?

To fulfill the MANDATE of Scripture even a traditional church or mega church needs to have home based fellowship groups. It's biblical, there is no way around it. Any large church that doesn't have home based groups is off course and unbiblical.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

That stuff happens everywhere not just a house church. There are excesses and abuses everywhere and anywhere

What you have said, how you come across was not just harsh but sounded down right arrogant. Maybe it was all just a joke at the house church persons expense, but that is still how it comes across. We mega churches are better than you little house churches

Little is much if God is in it.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop

My son is in college to be a Pharmacist but really he and his little wife have their hearts set on missions too. He is one of the youth leaders at Free Chapel and leads in small groups. His wife is a model, actress, singer, musician and teaches the Word too.
They are a great couple and have been married 19 months and are expecting their first child in May. We are all excited. We have been a part of Free Chapel Worship Center for 13 years in Gainesville, GA.

That sounds wonderful. You (and they) sound truly blessed.

This news report comes across like many are leaving the mega-churches and going to house churches. There is simply, not true. The mega-churches are packed and the house churches people wear their flannel shirts and eat casseroles so... everyone is happy.

Actually Barna and a number of groups have been charting church attendance in the United States. Record numbers of Americans who identify themselves as Bible Believing Christians are opting out of attending church. The vast majority of American Christians don’t attend church, they listen to Christian radio, watch Christian television, or stream their favorite Bible teacher over the internet. In a sense, America is a house churching nation. The term “house church” by the way is a misnomer; I prefer the title “simple church”. Because it’s not about meeting in houses… it’s about a far more simple approach to church life and church community living. So, while mega churches appear to be packed, it really isn’t an accurate indicator.

As for wearing flannel shirts and eating casseroles… lol. Traditional churches always say, “It doesn’t matter how you’re dressed, come as you are.” But anyone with half a brain knows that’s not true. The Sunday Show and the proceeding Sunday Fashion parade is a cultural norm in American Christianity that everyone knows exists. The fact that even friendly accusations against house churchers include their more relaxed attire only demonstrates that the reality is… traditional churches view “dressing up” as obligatory for Christians. So the “Come as you are.” statements are clearly myth. While you are welcome to “come as you are”, eventually you will be expected to dress to the nines and participate in the Sunday Fashion Parade.

As for casseroles, I love casseroles. Lol But that’s not the point. The point is eating has always been a central theme of Christians gathering. Throughout the NT the Lord’s Supper is a “love feast” wherein the saints provided a communal meal. It was during this meal that that the bread was broken and the attendees partook in the bread and the wine. Of course, after the Catholic Church FORCED people to attend the Cathedrals the groups became so large they “ceremonialized” the Lord’s Supper and reduced it to a wafer cracker and a single drink of wine (or grape juice). Sadly, even Pentecostal churches still hold the Lord’s Supper in the model of the CATHOLIC tradition as opposed to the NT love feast. Early Christians didn’t just have meetings, they had “meatings”. Visiting with Christians typically meant, the poor will be fed. They fed you body and spirit. Remember, in the Middle East, eating together was a very intimate and personal thing. Even Jesus can be seen teaching over a table of food in the NT.

Some want the Catholic “order of service”, a sterilized and ceremonial meeting. Others want to experience a living community.

There have always been and will always be - House Churches, denominational Churches, non-denominational Churches, Mega-Churches, Trinity Churches, Oneness Churches, Big, Small, tiny, bad, good, White, Black, Indian, Jamaican, Haitian, Asian and crazy and cultic churches and every other kind!
To say that the house churches are making big inroads into Christianity is simply just not true. Most churches start out in someones living room or basement and then buy property and build - so - maybe there are more churches starting and someone that glorifies HOUSE CHURCHES just thinks that more people want out of big churches. Whatever! Its late and I am about half insane dealing with a 2 year old for three solid days. I don't even know if I am sane tonight! LOL ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!
One thing for sure...I am NOT going to a HOUSE CHURCH and eat casseroles afterward! ;-)

Most of the statistical analysis is based on interviewing those who report themselves as house churchers. Also, those who believe in “simple church” classify Bible believing Christians who don’t attend church, but meet with Christians at work, listen to Christian radio, or meet in smaller groups, be it at home or at a coffee shop as being “simple church” believers.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop

What I do not agree with is these little cultic like "house churches" that think they are superior to any other kind of church.

We see the same problem with traditional churches. In a house church, it’s far more contained. One thing needed in simple church today are leaders that are “ordained” by traditional denominations. This would provide some oversight in areas like this.

I have seen first hand for many years the rebellion against Apostolic Order and Spiritual Authority of these that leave the church and start a little "prayer group" in their home and then run pastors and churches down and lift themselves up as the super spiritual.

We in Simple Church circles run into the same thing. One thing we stress is that if the believer is disgruntled and rebellious, Simple Church will be even more difficult. Why? Because all present are more intimately involved than in a traditional church. Yes, people are going to be far more involved in your business than in a traditional church. I’ve discovered that sometimes people have to go through a period of “detoxing” after leaving traditional churches. They have to forgive how they were wronged, if wronged, and move on in Christ. The Simple Churches I’ve seen stress that larger more traditional churches aren’t the enemy, they are just unbiblical. Many larger churches make up for this by allowing participative small group ministry.

Most of them do not believe in tithe or support missions. They are argumentative and rebellious and I do not agree with them.

You are correct, most Simple Churches don’t believe in “tithing” and they don’t have a “paid clergy”. Many don’t support traditional “missions” programs, however many Simple Churches do give abundantly to neighborhood events and efforts to spread the Gospel in their communities.

I have seen the leaders of these "house churches" control and manipulate people with personal "prophecys" and try to control the lives of new Christians and weak minded people. I have seen them twist the scriptures and use it to benefit their own ego.

We’ve seen this in traditional churches also. Most of the same problems found in the traditional church landscape are found in house churches. However, in house churches that are run “biblically” everyone has a voice and the “elders” are charged with not allowing one man become dominate. Everyone has a voice, unlike in a traditional church.

You may think this is harsh but I have seen the abuses of these "house churches" for many years.

Same for traditional churches. As a matter of fact, for those of us involved in Simple Churching, we find that a good percentage of those entering the Simple Church community were abused and wronged by their larger more traditional church. Often much time and healing must be ministered to these individuals to remove the hurt and bitterness.

Do you know the end result of most of them is? People that see no need to assemble in corporate worship with other Christians and are rebellious against God and His Church that He purchased with His own blood!

When the writer of Hebrews commanded that Christians not forsake the assembling of themselves, it’s important to remember that they didn’t have mega churches or large traditional churches in that day. The assembly was typically in a house and rather secretive, especially when persecution was taking place. An assembly of believers constitutes two or more meeting in the name of Jesus. Two believers meeting in a home or meeting in a public place to pray or discuss and teach Scripture, is an “assembly” of believers. If a believer regularly meets with just one other believer at minimum, even that constitutes an assembly.

That my friend is why I am NOT going to any "house church" and not going to eat their casseroles!

You’d not be happy to be a part of a church underground in China? Not big and flashy enough for you? Sharing food and fellowship not your style? You’d definitely not feel comfortable in a church gathering in NT times.

[whoami]

Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop

What I do not agree with is these little cultic like "house churches" that think they are superior to any other kind of church. I have seen first hand for many years the rebellion against Apostolic Order and Spiritual Authority of these that leave the church and start a little "prayer group" in their home and then run pastors and churches down and lift themselves up as the super spiritual. Most of them do not believe in tithe or support missions. They are argumentative and rebellious and I do not agree with them.
I have seen the leaders of these "house churches" control and manipulate people with personal "prophecys" and try to control the lives of new Christians and weak minded people. I have seen them twist the scriptures and use it to benefit their own ego.
You may think this is harsh but I have seen the abuses of these "house churches" for many years. Do you know the end result of most of them is? People that see no need to assemble in corporate worship with other Christians and are rebellious against God and His Church that He purchased with His own blood!
That my friend is why I am NOT going to any "house church" and not going to eat their casseroles!

Can you really, honestly, not see the fact that you're sounding exactly like you're accusing the "cultic house churches" of acting? You seem to feel just as sure that they're all poor hillbilly cults as you presume that they're sure that they're superior to all mega churches because they have delicious casseroles!

And as far as them not having enough money, so... they're not money changers. So what.

I really hope you're saying this in a joking manner, because you sound downright rude. Seriously. If you're teaching a perspective like this to a congregation, have you considered that you may be founding a cult of hate towards house churches?

Yes, I have seen cultic house churches. I've also seen cultic mega churches. *shrug* What makes a cultic house church worse than a cultic mega church? A casserole?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop

One thing for sure...I am NOT going to a HOUSE CHURCH and eat casseroles afterward!
I hate casseroles too & Hoovie, you are mighty right! They cannot afford a BISHOP! LOL
Of course - most of them don't believe in Bishop's except the one that is sitting in the big easy chair with his Hawaiian shirt on - teaching them on the fruit of the Spirit and then how to speak in tongues. Still gives me the Hibby Jibbys!

A biblical house church has two or at most three “bishops” gifted in “prophecy” or anointed teaching. The Bishops may bring individual “thoughts” and Scriptures and speak in turn, or they might open on a single passage in a discussion format. All are allowed to share their thoughts, insights, and experiences relating to the topic. The entire group is allowed to participate, building each other up in the Lord. The group should never be left to the knowledge or control of one man. Jesus should be allowed to flow through his body.

While some house church “elders” are paid, most are not and don’t desire to be. As Paul, house church elders work with their hands in their own occupations and minister as part of their calling…there is a strong aversion to making one’s calling a profession. It’s not about the money; it’s about one’s calling in Christ Jesus.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop

Well. Here is my thing... I like the Black Church. I mean git down, shoutin' in the aisles, Hammond Organ blaring, Screaming, Jerking, Running, Doing the Holy Dance and then falling out in the floor while the Church Nurse fans you! I love to watch it and enjoy the joy when God's Oppressed People begin to rejoice and many of them not knowing if they will have fare to get home!
I like it 100 MPH +. I like a preacher who can WHOOP! I LOVE TD JAKES, Noel Jones, Marvin Winans and the great black preachers of today.
I can't help it. My Pastor was Bishop G. E. Patterson and I grew up under great black preachers in the Church of God in Christ and I still love it today.
There is nothing in this world like going to an inner city Black Church and hearing them sing the Praises of God and hearing them testify of how God made a way one more time!
I absolutely love it! I guess that is why I am a White Bishop in the Black Church!
When asked what their daddy did for a living - My kids would always say - He is a Black Bishop! ROFL!!!!!!!!!

Heightened emotionalism is the norm in many circles. Much of this is out of biblical order. I’ve been in services where the emotionalism broke forth to such a level the preacher never got to the Word of God. And they said, “Man, didn’t we have church tonight?!” I answered, “No, we didn’t. You didn’t even crack the Word.” Total silence from those around me. Operating in the Holy Ghost is biblical…but all the gyrations, salivating, eyes rolling in the back of one’s head, chicken dancing into the floor until one lays having convulsions isn’t found in the NT. Deep and systematic “plowing” into the truths of God’s Word allowing the members to share and participate is a far deeper experience than having a professional “preacher” deliver emotionally exciting religious platitudes for 40 minutes. I’ve seen people confess deep seated sin in tears and weeping while the house church gathers around them praying prayers of grace and forgiveness as the sinning Christian or visitor weep, sobbing, confessing their pain, hurt, sin, and failures. While I too have attended the hooping and hollering “church services” you speak of, watching a believer or visitor empty their soul out of their darkest secrets and buried pain, while ministering the grace of God is far more rewarding.

Many don’t realize what a “sermon” is. Peter didn’t preach a “sermon”. You’ll not find a single “sermon” in the NT. What you will find are anointed men of God sharing the Word of God, allowing for and answering questions among those listening. It’s a dialogue, not a monologue. Sermons are largely structured after Sophist rhetoric and Grecian persuasional teaching. Like the Greek philosophers, preachers often offer their text, philosophical premise, and analogies to support said premise, with a call for conformity to their premise at the end of the sermon. Such isn’t found in the NT. The following verse tells us a lot:

Acts 20:7
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Most unlearned Christians envision Paul “preaching”, sweating, and delivering a “sermon” until midnight. Rubbish! No, the word for “preached” here is, “dialegomai” which means:

1256 // dialegomai // dialegomai // dee-al-eg'-om-ahee //

middle voice from 1223 and 3004 ; TDNT - 2:93,155; v

AV - dispute 6, reason with 2, reason 2, preach unto 1,
preach 1, speak 1; 13

1) to think different things with one's self, mingle thought with thought
1a) to ponder, revolve in mind
2) to converse, discourse with one, argue, discuss

We get the word “dialogue” from this Greek word. Paul had an open “discussion”, “conversation”, “dispute”, etc. until midnight. It was an open meeting as Paul described in I Corinthians 14. And… it happened in a home. Also notice, they broke bread, meaning they had a dinner, most likely the “love feast”, aka, the Lord’s Supper.

Most who enter the ranks of Simple Church are tired of the emotional hoopla that is exciting on Sunday night… but leaves you hollow and powerless on Monday morning. Deep and powerful teaching, along with individual involvement, set the tone for the week… your individual journey as part of the Kingdom of God. Also YOU are the hands of feet of the Savior. Everyone you meet, when you sit and talk about the Lord Jesus, it’s an assembly. It isn’t about getting someone to “go to church” with you. It’s about “having church” with a lost soul, be it in your home, in the house church assembly, or in a coffee shop.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by whoami

Can you really, honestly, not see the fact that you're sounding exactly like you're accusing the "cultic house churches" of acting? You seem to feel just as sure that they're all poor hillbilly cults as you presume that they're sure that they're superior to all mega churches because they have delicious casseroles!

And as far as them not having enough money, so... they're not money changers. So what.

I really hope you're saying this in a joking manner, because you sound downright rude. Seriously. If you're teaching a perspective like this to a congregation, have you considered that you may be founding a cult of hate towards house churches?

Yes, I have seen cultic house churches. I've also seen cultic mega churches. *shrug* What makes a cultic house church worse than a cultic mega church? A casserole?

What saddens me is that he's condemned an entire "biblical" method of gathering, not realizing that the majority of Christians meeting throughout the world aren't meeting in large professional buildings. Throughout China, South America, various places in Europe, Africa, and the Middle East, Christians are meeting in homes and living a more communal lifestyle. AtlantaBishop obviously is one who thinks that the American style of modern church is the rule. Frankly, it's the exception.

I guess unless you're a wealthy body of saints who can afford a building and employ a pastor... you don't have right to call yourself a church?

This is an example of what is often driving people away from the traditional church.

Also, you'll find more suspecion and condemnation from traditional churches towards house churches than from house churches towards traditional churches.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop

Well. Here is my thing... I like the Black Church. I mean git down, shoutin' in the aisles, Hammond Organ blaring, Screaming, Jerking, Running, Doing the Holy Dance and then falling out in the floor while the Church Nurse fans you! I love to watch it and enjoy the joy when God's Oppressed People begin to rejoice and many of them not knowing if they will have fare to get home!
I like it 100 MPH +. I like a preacher who can WHOOP! I LOVE TD JAKES, Noel Jones, Marvin Winans and the great black preachers of today.
I can't help it. My Pastor was Bishop G. E. Patterson and I grew up under great black preachers in the Church of God in Christ and I still love it today.
There is nothing in this world like going to an inner city Black Church and hearing them sing the Praises of God and hearing them testify of how God made a way one more time!
I absolutely love it! I guess that is why I am a White Bishop in the Black Church!
When asked what their daddy did for a living - My kids would always say - He is a Black Bishop! ROFL!!!!!!!!!

With the exception of the nurse, I've seen all this in plenty of "White" church cultures......and I can't stand it in any color.