The First Church of Utopia

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by scotty

Oh I fully understand you wont approve of my lifestyle, but if Im covered under grace then whats it matter.

Your speaking as a fool, Scotty.

Grace doesn't just cover. It's not just a passive legal device. It's a real empowering, sanctifying work. Have patience with other brothers. Your poop stinks too!

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Socialite, I know you know this, but it's not just the cons that wag their fingers at the broken, it's all of us. The liberals are just as guilty. It's a human-nature, sin-nature problem, that causes so many in the Christian world to crow with the Pharisee, "I thank my God that I am not like other men...". Paul wrote about his own tendencies in Romans 7 and then said to the CORINTHIAN church, no less, "If you think you are standing strong, be careful, for you, too, may fall into the same sin." (10:12)

Sin doesn't ask us first if we're liberal or conservative, it just shows up at our door. And when it does, I want to do everything in my power to have created an environment where that person is smothered with love and care and never looked down upon.

Touche'

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by notofworks

And if he genuinely was devastated by sorrow each time he fell, what should we do? Allow him to return each time or send him on his way until he changes?

Good sign one hasn't repented his he continues to do it. "sinnETH" he that sinneth if of the devil according to John.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Straw Man #2

I can make a straw man if I want to.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Yes IF is the key! But if the leadership continually sang him in the choir, allowed him to testify, preached about how righteous He is because Jesus is righteous, yet he remains doing what he is doing, AT some point the church has got to say, You have to let it go!

You know, there isn't really a verse that gives us the "cut-off" point. But I don't know that we really need one. I don't think one was provided for us because it never comes up. The people I have seen smothered by grace have been the very ones who are so smitten with God and His mercy, that they are magnetically drawn to God more than ever!

I once sat in the office on a Saturday with two parents and their daughter, who was in the choir, who had been caught in the back seat of a car with a boy on a Friday night. Yes, they were doing THAT.

She was devastated. Broken. Embarrassed.

It was assumed that she wouldn't be doing anything in the church for a while but I strongly insisted that she stand in the choir the next day with her head held high, understanding that she was forgiven, restored, and on exactly the same level as anyone else in that choir. There was no way I could allow that choir to sing about God's grace the next day if it didn't have any grace.

Today, that girl is married with two beautiful children and a great family there was never an issue again. But had there been, we would have done the same thing again.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by scotty

Wow, ok so I can be a drunk on saturday nights and be heaven bound with an embracing congregation sunday morning !!!!

Where do I sign up ??

Wouldn't you want to have someone like this show up at your church for salvation?

We should have a church full of needy people - - and not needy saints!

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by scotty

Oh I fully understand you wont approve of my lifestyle, but if Im covered under grace then whats it matter.

If you're covered in grace, you're going to run to grace. If you're not covered in grace, you're going to run from grace.

[MrMasterMind]

W

Originally Posted by notofworks

I dream of a church.




A church where we accept and embrace one another realizing we're all faulty and no one has an exemption from that.

A church where every single person is safe, regardless.

A church where depravities can be confessed without fear of banishment even if it's a leader that confesses the depravity.

A church that rushes to restore and love anyone who has failed, regardless of how great the failure and who did the failing.

A church that doesn't just wear WWJD bracelets, but lives out the concept.

A church where one would be anxious to attend the Sunday after one was arrested for the most embarrassing of crimes, knowing one would be smothered with love, acceptance, and forgiveness.

A church where neither a mocking or joking word would ever be uttered about those who have fallen, who are "different", who are hurting, who have hurt others...a church where no one laughs if the soloist forgets the words and goes flat.

A church that was more than a group of people that gather weekly and talk about God's power, but who live out God's power through the power of community.

A church where victims of crime and sin stand hand in hand with criminals and sinners, together realizing their need of God.

A church where we leave shaking our heads in amazement at the love of God rather than the greatness of the oratorical skills of the preacher.

A church where we rejoice with those that rejoice and weep with those that weep.

A church that wasn't afraid to admit it didn't have all the answers but were always willing to hear the questions.

A church where it's okay to have doubt, because faith that has never passed through the filter of doubt, never truly becomes faith.

A church where the famous names we all know could have shared their struggles of the flesh and The Church would have helped them through their struggles rather than displacing them and punishing them and as a result, prevented their names from being in the headlines.

A church where never a finger is pointed at another in superiority.

A church that is actually just like Jesus.

My good friend you have unfortunately described a church without people.

But like personal holiness a worthy goal nonetheless.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by notofworks

I dream of a church.




A church where we accept and embrace one another realizing we're all faulty and no one has an exemption from that.

A church where every single person is safe, regardless.

A church where depravities can be confessed without fear of banishment even if it's a leader that confesses the depravity.

A church that rushes to restore and love anyone who has failed, regardless of how great the failure and who did the failing.

A church that doesn't just wear WWJD bracelets, but lives out the concept.

A church where one would be anxious to attend the Sunday after one was arrested for the most embarrassing of crimes, knowing one would be smothered with love, acceptance, and forgiveness.

A church where neither a mocking or joking word would ever be uttered about those who have fallen, who are "different", who are hurting, who have hurt others...a church where no one laughs if the soloist forgets the words and goes flat.

A church that was more than a group of people that gather weekly and talk about God's power, but who live out God's power through the power of community.

A church where victims of crime and sin stand hand in hand with criminals and sinners, together realizing their need of God.

A church where we leave shaking our heads in amazement at the love of God rather than the greatness of the oratorical skills of the preacher.

A church where we rejoice with those that rejoice and weep with those that weep.

A church that wasn't afraid to admit it didn't have all the answers but were always willing to hear the questions.

A church where it's okay to have doubt, because faith that has never passed through the filter of doubt, never truly becomes faith.

A church where the famous names we all know could have shared their struggles of the flesh and The Church would have helped them through their struggles rather than displacing them and punishing them and as a result, prevented their names from being in the headlines.

A church where never a finger is pointed at another in superiority.

A church that is actually just like Jesus.

This is exactly what Jesus does. When I was in my depravity HE accepted ME into His arms and HE LIFTED ME UP.
One thing I depend on in my life, and no matter what others think of me, is: People may let you down, but Jesus, always, ALWAYS, LIFTS YOU UP!!

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Good sign one hasn't repented his he continues to do it. "sinnETH" he that sinneth if of the devil according to John.

But you can't possibly know that. Jesus instructed Peter to forgive seven times. The word, "forgive", among other things, means to "Cease punishment." At a certain point, Peter approached Jesus and said, "Was it seven times", and it seems as though Peter was having a problem with someone and was counting down his opponents failures.

Jesus said, "No, seven times seven."

So God expects US to be THAT forgiving. Just imagine how forgiving God is.