Yet Another Pentecostal Organization

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

My point is that this is a Kingdom... organizations are an invention of man and they hold absolutely no weight in God's sight. .

Many souls has found the Lord because of Organizations. God blesses groups that seek Him. Not everyone worships an organization.

This is typical non-denominational teachings (which consequently has also become an organization)

Aquila look in history, no one group touched the world. It was Unity that caused revival and uprisings. Unity is God's will.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Many souls has found the Lord because of Organizations.

Here's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. People don't find the Lord because of organizations, or we'd sing, "Praise the Organizations!" Also, the Lord isn't the one who is lost and estranged from Heaven, man is. The Lord drew them out according to His love, grace, and divine power. In the common line of thinking, as expressed above, organizations are given the glory and praise that only belongs to God. Hense it becomes a form of idolatry.

God blesses groups that seek Him. Not everyone worships an organization.

Yes, God blesses both groups and individuals that seek HIM. However, in many denominations and organizations once one is saved that organization or denomination begins to shape the individual and their thinking into a framework loyal to the organization or denomination in question. Sometimes to a cultic degree. For example, many Catholics and UPCI members believe that their respective denomination or organization has a monopoly on truth. We see much strife and division in the body along these lines. If the Bible is allowed to speak and Christ is allowed to be head of His church, if we allow the body to be a priesthood of believers, most often you'll discover such a mindset doesn't develope.

This is typical non-denominational teachings (which consequently has also become an organization)

Yes, many non-denominational denominations organize around an anti-denominational concept and thereby oppose themselves.

I'm currently in a fellowship of house churches. They are based out of a Southern Baptist church I currently attend. However, my house church elder isn't Southern Baptist. He has Lutheran roots. Our elders all have different backgrounds denominationally and even theologically. However, in our fellowship our elders aren't "licensed" by any worldly system. Our elders are recognized independently in each house church. In each house church the Bible is read and discussed by all present. The entire group ministers to one another, we don't have one teacher teaching to a row of noses that are expected to believe everything he says. Our elders are very humble and often admit that their opinion is different from one presented, and could be wrong. At that point we read the Bible and examine both sides of the issue allowing for individuals to decide what they believe the Word of God is saying. While the vast majority in my house church are solid Calvinists, we have a few beloved brethren who are Arminian. We simply allow the Spirit to lead and guide.

Aquila look in history, no one group touched the world. It was Unity that caused revival and uprisings. Unity is God's will.

You'll find the greatest movements being grassroot and rather unorganized by the world's standards.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Here's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. People don't find the Lord because of organizations, or we'd sing, "Praise the Organizations!" Also, the Lord isn't the one who is lost and estranged from Heaven, man is. The Lord drew them out according to His love, grace, and divine power. In the common line of thinking, as expressed above, organizations are given the glory and praise that only belongs to God. Hense it becomes a form of idolatry.



.

Aquila how did the missionaries get there to preach Christ? Or start that church in the city? It was because of support from.... an organization of people. You are kicking against the pricks my friend.

IF you have not an organization of people, its much harder to reach souls. Paul even recognized this as he gathered himself a group and started churches and then call back to those churches he started for assistance with others to start. That is call organization.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Aquila how did the missionaries get there to preach Christ? Or start that church in the city? It was because of support from.... an organization of people. You are kicking against the pricks my friend.

IF you have not an organization of people, its much harder to reach souls. Paul even recognized this as he gathered himself a group and started churches and then call back to those churches he started for assistance with others to start. That is call organization.

Bro... you're ignorant of your history. The greatest church growth in history took place in the first two centuries without any global organization or great wealth. They had regional houses, mostly based in homes, networked sharing the Gospel one on one. Missionaries, like Paul, had a trade and would travel to a region and set up shop, supporting themselves and sharing the Gospel person to person.

You'll see the Great Awakening spread revivals this way too. They were mostly opposed by the religious organizations and institutions of their day. Even John Wesley admitted he did more to further the Kingdom of God preaching from tree stumps and his father's tomb than behind the pulpit he eventually grew into.

And even today the greatest church growth around the world is taking place in China and India among loosely knit networks of house churches who most often don't own any property beyond a private home. A great example of this is the movement began by Ying Kai after the Holy Spirit convicted him not to start churches... but to reach and train disciples to reach and train disciples to start churches. Everyone within his house church network is discipled and trained with one vision... start a fellowship that trains others to start a fellowship who trains others to... and so on. The growth is UNBELIEVABLE. The inspiration of one man led of the Holy Ghost. He believes that if you're still sitting under him after about a year, something is wrong with your experience. He doesn't want to see his disciples sitting in rows listening to him for 40 years. He wants them equipped and empowered to reach their world by starting fellowships within their own homes to do the same.

Truth is... today we have the largest and most wealthy "organizations" and denominations ever. And yet church growth in Europe and America is abysmal. We're seeing massive growth in undeveloped regions among those who house church, their entire Christianity being missional and person to person... just like in the first two centuries. These movements aren't requesting a lot of money either. It's not a program in their faith. It's THE MISSION. Their reason for breathing.

Get back to basics... we are trying to save the world with a "corporate business model". And even this thread demonstrates that in this model all you'll see is division after division as everyone divides over the idolatry of their pet ideas.

[Aquila]

The truth is Onefaith, you have enough biblical understanding to start a house church in your own home to train at least 3-4 families to do the same. But if you're like most here, you're either a pastor who needs the flock nailed down and tithing to pay your bills... or you're essentially sitting in a pew trying to win others to sit in the pew with you so you can... support the system with your $$$$.

If you want a spiritual revolution... you must think like a spiritual revolutionary.

House church leaders in China have rebuked the American church and are already threatening to send missionaries to reach the US. lol Bro... it's uglier than you think. But first you have to get outside of it and take a look.

[acerrak]

sure aquila lets go back to caves, have church and flee the romans.

in america we dont have to flee so we can meet together in what fashion we want, but for others they do have to hid in secrete.

and they did gather in areas there just wasnt a church building at first, they met in the temple courts, in peoples houses and eventually in secrete, until it opened up

then the synagogue idea was adopted and still in practice today and Truely God has blessed it redardless of what you believe. however He does want people to not confine themselves into the limitations of a 4 walled building.

Jail ministry rescue missions nursing homes, block parties, door to door

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by Aquila

House church leaders in China have rebuked the American church and are already threatening to send missionaries to reach the US. lol Bro... it's uglier than you think. But first you have to get outside of it and take a look.

thats odd i helped smuggle bibles into china, and i dont really agree with this statment aquilla, i think its fabricated

i have to come back and edit

They dont have many bibles, they recieve tracks and tapes. when they get a bible they some times bury it or they rip them apart and share it with other people.

Christinty is very closed they dont go around professing

we have to send the bibles to korea and try to get some from china to come and risk their own life to smuggle it across the boarders. they long for people to preach to them, and they are spirit filled
there is not like a bunch of bibles floating around in public. you get caught with one your gonna get beat and will be imprisoned for like 6 years forced to make christmas lights and happy meal toys.

[The Lemon]

I have to say, it is very hard to argue away some of the points Aquilla is making here. I believe we need to assemble as this is Biblical, but an assembly can be as little as 2 or as large as 1,000. I am not against our faith being "organized", but by the same token you have to have your head in the sand to not think there are politics and family connections in relation to position and ministry opportunities etc.

I have been around long enough to see things that would make the average saint run the other way and loose out with God, much less a new or young minister trying to carve out a work.

For some, it is just to shocking to think of life with God outside the organizational structures, so it is much easier to just dismiss it as a fad or extreme group and make general statements with nothing more then opinion.

There are good things about organizations, there is also good in house church, I think both sides should acknowledge that much. There will always be the human element in both. We are spoiled rotten in this country and there very well could come a day where we meet in a "cave". The biggest reason we are set up as business entities is because of the affluence thatr exists in this country in the first place, take that away and we will meet in small groups out of necessity instead of lavish buildings costing thousands to buy and even more to run.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

I have to say, it is very hard to argue away some of the points Aquilla is making here. I believe we need to assemble as this is Biblical, but an assembly can be as little as 2 or as large as 1,000. I am not against our faith being "organized", but by the same token you have to have your head in the sand to not think there are politics and family connections in relation to position and ministry opportunities etc.

I have been around long enough to see things that would make the average saint run the other way and loose out with God, much less a new or young minister trying to carve out a work.

For some, it is just to shocking to think of life with God outside the organizational structures, so it is much easier to just dismiss it as a fad or extreme group and make general statements with nothing more then opinion.

There are good things about organizations, there is also good in house church, I think both sides should acknowledge that much. There will always be the human element in both. We are spoiled rotten in this country and there very well could come a day where we meet in a "cave". The biggest reason we are set up as business entities is because of the affluence thatr exists in this country in the first place, take that away and we will meet in small groups out of necessity instead of lavish buildings costing thousands to buy and even more to run.

its to long of a topic to read all the post, however we have to look at the bible as a whole

and while the bible teaches predistination one must view that according to other scriptures as well. We dont ague away his points, we simply show him how to interpret his points, calvinism view is to far left to correct and thus in order to stay with it other words and scriptures are twisted to support it.

Its clear as day to people looking at but once your intangled into it and believe the stuff its hard for any one to show them anything.

same with hyper arminianism they believe that have so much free will that they will preach themselves in and out of grace everyday and turn it into a salvation of works

most of us on this topic have come to the conclusion that there is a happy middle that is really more biblical

james stated that if any follow away from the faith correct them

james 5:19-20
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by acerrak

sure aquila lets go back to caves, have church and flee the romans.

That’s not what I’m saying.

in america we dont have to flee so we can meet together in what fashion we want, but for others they do have to hid in secrete.

True. My church started 6 years ago and has between 2,000 and 3,000 members (many Spirit filled). A solid network of over 120 house churches and almost third of these are set to multiply within the next 12 months. Now… most institutional churches I know have roughly 120 members and are pushing revival services to pick up at least another 5-10 at best. They also hope to build an extension on the building within the next 12 months. The elders of our house churches aren’t paid staff. They do it simply for the love of God. The hub where our campus is located is merely a “gathering place” where the house churches come to worship together on Sunday afternoons. Teaching and preaching rotates through the elders as we navigate an entire book of the Bible. In January we began the Gospel of John. We’re only part way through chapter 6 now. We’re expected to be going through the Gospel of John verse by verse for the next year and a half. Our house churches are very missional. We’ve linked up with the house churches in our given regions to raise money to send teams (members of our house churches) to Guatemala, Mexico, and India. Anyone willing to raise the funds to go is free to follow their missionary calling. Later this year my house church is sending five people to India to primarily LEARN from the rapidly growing movement in India and contribute assistance. Then come home and share what they learned among the house churches in our region with the intention of communicating the vision here in America. Our elder is big on India. He knows a lot of ministers on the ground. If I can raise the funds, I’d like to go wherever we’re targeting next spring.

and they did gather in areas there just wasnt a church building at first, they met in the temple courts, in peoples houses and eventually in secrete, until it opened up

And you’ll discover that Constantine was involved in the building of the first official church buildings. He wanted to heard the believers together into a state sanctioned church to control what was taught. Soon, those still meeting in homes were condemned for not following the Romanized clergy. It became illegal to have the Lord’s Supper at home without a duly ordained Priest. From there, Christianity began it’s decent into apostasy and church growth slowed significantly.

For those of us into house churching… the structure given by Paul in I Corinthians 14 is our vision. A meeting governed by two or three elders who come prepared to share with the group. And if anything be revealed to another within the group that sits by, the elder speaking holds his peace and allows that brother or sister to speak. It’s an open discussion on Scripture and God’s power wherein “ye all may prophesy”. We’ve had a few folk who are relatively silent in most meetings light up under the power of the Spirit and teach their understanding of various passages we’ve covered. Their contributions were priceless. The older saints have a voice to share their experience, wisdom, and knowledge. No one is left wishing they could have said something or could have asked a question. Since we don’t even think in the traditional paradigms, we have no one wishing they had “pulpit time”. If you’re anointed and have something to explain to the group, share, or a spiritual gift… use it. You’re part of the body. As you use your gifts and understanding you naturally grow into the spiritual role God intends for you within the group. I’ve seen some come as quiet visitors, then become regulars, then receive the Gospel, then begin using their gifts within the group, grow in understanding and share that with the group, and now they are being mentored to start their own house church. My house church elder, Renis, is burdened to embrace a vision found among Chinese house churches. He wants to train every one of us to facilitate a house church and then send us forward to do so. Not only that… he wants to train us to train others to do so. And hour house church is currently in correspondence with a few Chinese church leaders deep in the Chinese house churching movement.

We have a simple logic. It takes NO MONEY to start a house church. It only takes desire and time. We can start house churches and disciple leaders to go forth and do the same. We don’t see pastors, evangelists, prophets, teachers, and missionaries as positional ministries. We seem them as functional ministries. In other words the anointing or gift to pastor may be upon four of us in a given house church. Essentially a pastor is a spiritual mentor who disciples believers and aids in helping them come to greater levels of consecration. Evangelists are those who have a special burden to not just reach the lost…but to train up others to reach the lost. Prophets operate in the gifts of the Spirit within the house church (unit). Teachers are those with a sharp understanding of doctrine and the ability to explain and teach it to the house church. Missionaries (Apostles) are those with the special burden to see new fronts where the gospel is being preached and assist with it’s advancement, even if that means death. A house church in my region trained up a new covert that was Iraqi. He was equipped to start house churches. He returned to Iraq and started 9 known house churches who were envisioning multiplication. Last year he was brought up on charges of sedition and was beaten to death during the arrest by authorities though he didn’t resist arrest in any way. Then they ransacked the house looking for Bibles. Apparently locals got tired of hearing about Jesus. Our Iraqi brother is a martyr in Heaven as I speak… and the house churches he founded… are ON FIRE now. The news of this event has truly ignited a fire here also. We know the cry of the martyr. We’ve been touched by it personally.

If you were going to breed an animal… and you needed to multiply it to fill the land you had as quickly as possible. Would you choose to multiply elephants… or rabbits??? The traditional church structure is a lumbering elephant. We’ll produce at least 4 house churches (probable far more lol) in the time it takes for someone to establish a traditional church that serves as a religious concert all based on a single man’s monologue.

then the synagogue idea was adopted and still in practice today and Truely God has blessed it redardless of what you believe. however He does want people to not confine themselves into the limitations of a 4 walled building.

The day will come when they will take away your buildings, your organizations, your salaries, your titles, and all those things that traditional churchianity holds dear. If they took our campus from us today… we’d continue to meet without missing a beat. Frankly, most of us would be glad to be relived of it. LOL

Jail ministry rescue missions nursing homes, block parties, door to door

All good things. I don’t have an issue with them.