Romans 2:6-11

[Aquila]

I keep reading about "obedience" and "doing the will of God". It's all spoken of generically like everyone agrees. However, no one is being specific enough. If one must "obey" commandments or laws... what are those commandments and/or laws???

I assure you... almost nobody will agree. lol

Drop the law keeping and commandment seeking. Just seek Jesus and seek to be conformed into His image, partaking in His nature. No pork laws, dress codes, sabbaths, head gear, television mandates, etc. Just Jesus. In this freedom... you'll discover more and more what divine love and grace truly is.

God doesn't want you to be like Israel. So... stop trying to be. lol

[bbyrd009]

Hmm; Amen. This should lead one to personal observances
from a desire to be more conformed, without looking at others',
something like that, yes? To avoid the type of agreement we seek, but God doesn't care about, anyway.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Hmm; Amen. This should lead one to personal observances
from a desire to be more conformed, without looking at others',
something like that, yes? To avoid the type of agreement we seek, but God doesn't care about, anyway.

Amen.

If all men (and women) are striving to be conformed into the image of Jesus... we can't measure each other by ourselves. Everyone is pressing in, in varying degrees, to be more and more like Jesus.

The only thing I'd caution about "personal observances" is that we not become a law unto our individual selves. Sometimes we make a personal list of rules that we find impressive or interesting. For example, some devout Christians seek a Messianic identity. So they dress, pray, speak, and act like ancient Israel. The danger... they are becoming like ancient Israel... not entirely like Jesus. Jesus found his greatest enemies among the religious order that sought to please God in accordance to some performance. Christianity isn't about "doing" as much much as it is about "being". Be Jesus. He's the standard. He's the example. He's our identity. He's our righteousness. Any novel notion that detracts from being like Christ Himself is spiritually dangerous.

[HRea]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Christ alone is Ghandi's judge. Sadly, Ghandi was more like Jesus than most of us. lol

Gandhi was most definitely NOT like Jesus. I've seen this fanciful reference to Gandhi on AFF a couple of times, and I don't see any part of his life that exemplifies Christ. In this world, he is someone who is held up to be admired, but a closer examination reveals that he was most definitely a "man of this present world". He advocated open rebellion against the ruling authority (albeit peaceful rebellion), Gandhi was a polytheist until his later years when he converted to universalism (will heavy sympathies toward muslims and intolerance for Judaism); he even spoke of Jesus as not being the only son of God.

Originally Posted by Aquila

One can "obey Jesus" and not be a true believer.

One can obey a list and not be a true believer, but I think I see what you were trying to say here.

Originally Posted by Aquila

I keep reading about "obedience" and "doing the will of God". It's all spoken of generically like everyone agrees. However, no one is being specific enough. If one must "obey" commandments or laws... what are those commandments and/or laws???

I assure you... almost nobody will agree. lol

Drop the law keeping and commandment seeking. Just seek Jesus and seek to be conformed into His image, partaking in His nature. No pork laws, dress codes, sabbaths, head gear, television mandates, etc. Just Jesus. In this freedom... you'll discover more and more what divine love and grace truly is.

God doesn't want you to be like Israel. So... stop trying to be. lol

Should we throw away the printed Bible, all written teachings and admonitions? I cannot agree with trashing the written teachings of Jesus Christ, the prophets, and the apostles. These are our very foundation. There is a spirit that advocates "seeking Jesus outside of the Word", but this spirit also rejects the authority of the written Word.

Is it Grace (effectual working of the power of God in us) versus Legalism (adherence to the written Word)...or is it that the question is phrased to bring about a conflict between the two where God did not intended for any to exist? I have never advocated the rejection of Grace for returning to the OT Law; however, there is much to gain from the written Word, as is also in the discovery of Grace and in Justification by Faith.

[bbyrd009]

[QUOTE=Aquila;1158891]...The only thing I'd caution about "personal observances" is that we not become a law unto our individual selves. Sometimes we make a personal list of rules that we find impressive or interesting. For example, some devout Christians seek a Messianic identity. So they dress, pray, speak, and act like ancient Israel...[QUOTE]

Ya, gross? I'm sure that disagrees with Scripture somewhere, and there should be no disagreement--with Scripture?

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by HRea

1)... He advocated open rebellion against the ruling authority (albeit peaceful rebellion)...2)Jesus as not being the only son of God...3) I cannot agree with trashing the written teachings of Jesus Christ, the prophets, and the apostles. These are our very foundation...4)Is it Grace (effectual working of the power of God in us) versus Legalism (adherence to the written Word)...or is it that the question is phrased to bring about a conflict between the two where God did not intended for any to exist? I have never advocated the rejection of Grace for returning to the OT Law; however, there is much to gain from the written Word, as is also in the discovery of Grace and in Justification by Faith.

1) Hmm,. sounds just like what Christ advoc'ed!
2) Melchezidek
3) Read with third eye.
4) "Vs." is where we are 3rd eye-blind. imo.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by HRea

Gandhi was most definitely NOT like Jesus. I've seen this fanciful reference to Gandhi on AFF a couple of times, and I don't see any part of his life that exemplifies Christ. In this world, he is someone who is held up to be admired, but a closer examination reveals that he was most definitely a "man of this present world". He advocated open rebellion against the ruling authority (albeit peaceful rebellion), Gandhi was a polytheist until his later years when he converted to universalism (will heavy sympathies toward muslims and intolerance for Judaism); he even spoke of Jesus as not being the only son of God.

Gandhi advocated peaceful rebellion against an oppressive empire. Gandhi advocated absolute peace to the point of martyrdom. Yes, Gandhi wasn’t exactly like Christ. However, in some ways, he was more like Christ than many of us.

One can obey a list and not be a true believer, but I think I see what you were trying to say here.

True. I’d also add that one could obey a list and think they are a true believer and not be.

Should we throw away the printed Bible, all written teachings and admonitions? I cannot agree with trashing the written teachings of Jesus Christ, the prophets, and the apostles. These are our very foundation. There is a spirit that advocates "seeking Jesus outside of the Word", but this spirit also rejects the authority of the written Word.

I agree with you. There are many “teachings” in Scripture. Teachings concerning prayer, forgiveness, peace, fasting, the spreading of the Gospel, etc. However, the fundamental foundation of these teachings is… love.

Is it Grace (effectual working of the power of God in us) versus Legalism (adherence to the written Word)...or is it that the question is phrased to bring about a conflict between the two where God did not intended for any to exist? I have never advocated the rejection of Grace for returning to the OT Law; however, there is much to gain from the written Word, as is also in the discovery of Grace and in Justification by Faith.

Yep, you missed the entire point. I firmly believe that a sound study of the Scripture will illustrate the disciplines and practices we are to embrace because of love.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Aquila

...I firmly believe that a sound study of the Scripture will illustrate the disciplines and practices we are to embrace because of love.

So like, shaving my beard if I were (for some strange reason) going to go to a UPS church, to avoid offending, v growing a beard first, before I went, which would (def) be my natch inclination.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Ya, gross? I'm sure that disagrees with Scripture somewhere, and there should be no disagreement--with Scripture?

No, there should be no disagreement with Scripture. The point is with reference to legalism.

Matthew 15:10-12
10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Mark 12:29-31 (KJV)
29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Galatians 5:14 (ESV)
14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Here's my point. Let's say someone believes we have to obey the Ten Commandments to be saved (ERROR). That means one can choose to have no other God's in their life but God, not make idols, not blaspheme the name of God, and worship on the seventh day. But that doesn't mean that the person "loves God", they are merely religious. One can honor their father and mother, it doesn't mean that they "love" them. One can refrain from stealing from, killing, lying to, committing adultery against, and coveting what is their neighbour's...but it doesn't mean that they "love" their neighbor. One can go forth and try to add members to their church by "sharing the Gospel"...but I've seen people do this and not "love" the people they are witnessing to.

However, if one truly loves the Lord... they will only worship and adore Him. They will not make idols. They will not blasphem His name. They will honor their parents. They will not steal from, kill, lie to, commit adultery against, or covet with regards to their neighbour. All of this is just second nature.

To go a step further... one demonstrates their love for God by loving their neighbour... not in rule keeping or "commandment" keeping. It all boils down to love.

All of this is in view of the ultimate aim... to be conformed into the image and likeness of Jesus Himself. To enjoy our oneness with Him in the Spirit. As we surrender and allow Christ to live His life and love out through us, we bear spiritual fruit. Those are:

love
joy
peace
longsuffering
gentleness
goodness
faith
meekness
temperance

Our enemy is the flesh. From the flesh we have impulses towards these selfish and unloving works:

sexual immorality
impurity
sensuality,
idolatry
sorcery
enmity
strife
jealousy
fits of anger
rivalries
dissensions
divisions
envy
drunkenness
orgies
and things like these

When we feel the impulse to engage in such behaviors it's because we've ceased to abide in Christ's love (that love for Christ that resonates within us, and that love of Christ that is to pour out from us). We've taken our eyes off of being conformed into the image of Christ and we are drifting back into pleasing the flesh... self.

So, it's my opinion that it's all grounded in love and transformation. A love for God exemplified through Christ's love for others flowing through us. An progression into greater and greater Christlikeness.

Jesus is the standard. Don't worry about a list of rules. Just... be Jesus.

[HRea]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

1) Hmm,. sounds just like what Christ advoc'ed!
2) Melchezidek
3) Read with third eye.
4) "Vs." is where we are 3rd eye-blind. imo.

1) Jesus never advocated rebellion against the Roman government.
2) Melchizedek was the priest of the most high God; however it was the same God.
3 & 4) third eye (blind) as in inner enlightenment or the alternative rock band? If you mean enlightenment - only by the Holy Spirit can we understand the mysteries of God. We cannot achieve this by our own endeavors, we need the Spirit to reveal these things to us. If you meant the rock band, Jesus is the Rock not the band - although He did sing an hymn at the Last Supper.