Image of the Beast

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

This is so outlandish, how someone can refuse to admit what is plain before their eyes.

All bible prophecy was given to the intended generation it was spoken to not to any generation in the future. It is only when men/women attempt to make prophecy speak to future generations, that we get mixed up translations and twisted meanings, such as futurism, and dispensationism.

The primary reason, is that they refuse to understand the apocalyptic language of the writers, and instead try to force the language into literal meanings. Such as terms like the "sun and moon turning into blood". futurist want to force this to mean the sun and moon will literally turn to blood at some point in the future. Or the term the "stars falling from the sky", again they want this to mean the stars literally will fall from the sky. Or another term, "every eye shall see him" they say that when Christ returns that every eye will literally see him at the same exact time. Which is an physical impossibility. But that does not sway the futurist from believing such. Why do they believe this? Because they have been indoctrinated for years, they have never ever even heard any differing teachings, than what they have been told. And instead of trying to understand, instead they only study to refute something that differs from what they have been taught.

People like this have the same attitude the religious leaders of Christ day. in their belief that their Messiah was a political leader that they believed would set up a literal political kingdom that would set them free from Roman oppression, they completely missed what was right in front of them. That being that the kingdom of God was never to be a literal earthly kingdom, but a spiritual kingdom within the hearts of those that accepted him.

I am reminded of a story, of a women that always cut the ends off of her ham before cooking it. Her husband ask her one day, "why do you cut the ends of the ham off. She replied, "I don't know, my mom always did it this way". After going all the way to her great grandmother, to find out why, she found out that her great grandmother did it because her pan was to small for the ham to fit and she cut off the ends so it would fit. It had become a tradition, passed down from mother to daughter for three generations, until some one ask why.

This is the same thing with futurism, no one questioned why we believe this way, and when someone did, they began to see the error of the teaching. For three hundred or four hundred years, this teaching has been passed down with little to none, of anyone questioning the validity of this tradition. Just like the daughter that cut off the ends of her ham because that is the way mom did it.

Loren, howbout "heaven and earth shall pass away"...you guys say, "the temple and the Jews shall pass away".....

So I am supposed to abandon my beliefs of a LITERAL interpretation for THAT???

Have you guys even researched the ORIGINS of where that "switch" came from???

Anytime we have to leave a literal interpretation of any passage, we always end up speculating what we think it then means. That is why I teach any passage that is not clear to me with an *. You guys should try it some time...

And you say that I am closed minded! I am just trying to protect my beliefs from mens' assumptions.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You said I TOLD YOU NOTHING BUT what Josephus said. You cannot take one quote from me on this forum and prove it. And now you say GOOGLE it. I did google it and the only thing that came up was MFBLUME and JOSEPHUS was YOUR POST I am now responding to. Try it. lol

I use BIBLE. You simply throw dirt.

Still cannot answer my points, I see. Soon you will once again say you cannot respond any more and we never will get your responses, once again

Mike, I am not throwing dirt here. The fact is the you and all preterists use the book of Josephus as a "text book" to base your assumptions on. I am just too lazy(not worth my time) to look back in the posts and frankly, not in the mood to debate this stuff anymore. Your buddy(the carnal evangelist) was tempting my old man to come off the cross and this subject became a big "turn off" to me. You guys can have at it. I have seen the DARK side of this preterism thing, and it aint pretty.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Sean

Loren, howbout "heaven and earth shall pass away"...you guys say, "the temple and the Jews shall pass away".....

So I am supposed to abandon my beliefs of a LITERAL interpretation for THAT???

Have you guys even researched the ORIGINS of where that "switch" came from???

Anytime we have to leave a literal interpretation of any passage, we always end up speculating what we think it then means. That is why I teach any passage that is not clear to me with an *. You guys should try it some time...

And you say that I am closed minded! I am just trying to protect my beliefs from mens' assumptions.

Sean
If Jesus was speaking of this literal heaven and earth in the words you are quoting from, than you must still be under the law. Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Either we are still under the law, by your interpretation or the heaven and earth must mean something other than this literal heaven and earth.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Again in chapter 24 Jesus speaks of all things being fulfilled, even heaven and earth. This again cannot be speaking of the literal heavens and earth or else the salvation of the cross could not be in effect, we would be still under the law. So long as you refuse to study the meaning of the terms using scripture instead of mans reasoning, you can never get the true meaning of scripture.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Sean
If Jesus was speaking of this literal heaven and earth in the words you are quoting from, than you must still be under the law. Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Either we are still under the law, by your interpretation or the heaven and earth must mean something other than this literal heaven and earth.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Again in chapter 24 Jesus speaks of all things being fulfilled, even heaven and earth. This again cannot be speaking of the literal heavens and earth or else the salvation of the cross could not be in effect, we would be still under the law. So long as you refuse to study the meaning of the terms using scripture instead of mans reasoning, you can never get the true meaning of scripture.

Loren....the Law IS fulfilled(finished) to the born again believer! Of course what Jesus said is literal!!!


ful·fill also ful·fil (fl-fl)
tr.v. ful·filled, ful·fill·ing, ful·fills also ful·fils
1. To bring into actuality; effect: fulfilled their promises.
2. To carry out (an order, for example).
3. To measure up to; satisfy. See Synonyms at perform, satisfy.
4. To bring to an end; complete.


Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Sean

Loren....the Law IS fulfilled(finished) to the born again believer! Of course what Jesus said is literal!!!


ful·fill also ful·fil (fl-fl)
tr.v. ful·filled, ful·fill·ing, ful·fills also ful·fils
1. To bring into actuality; effect: fulfilled their promises.
2. To carry out (an order, for example).
3. To measure up to; satisfy. See Synonyms at perform, satisfy.
4. To bring to an end; complete.


Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

By your understanding then scripture just contradicted itself. Because Jesus said "until heaven and earth pass away not one jot or tittle of the law shall pass, until ALL things are fulfilled".

[shag]

What do u make of this Sean?

Heb 8:13
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Or



In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and groweth old is ready to vanish away.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

By your understanding then scripture just contradicted itself. Because Jesus said "until heaven and earth pass away not one jot or tittle of the law shall pass, until ALL things are fulfilled".

Bro., It(the Law) has been fulfilled(finished) for us on the cross, that is why Jesus said..."it is finished", then the vail in the temple was torn in two.

Again bro. The Law IS fulfilled IN US, TODAY....RIGHT NOW...the believers!

(BTW..I do believe the Law is still in effect for sinners to be judged in the end and lead them to the Lord)

[Sean]

Originally Posted by shag

What do u make of this Sean?

Heb 8:13
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Or



In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and groweth old is ready to vanish away.

It is decaying..(dry rot, fungus, cancer etc.)....I want NO part of it!

I live under the New Covenant bro. ,with all the promises of our Savior attatched.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Sean

Mike, I am not throwing dirt here.

When you abandon biblical arguments and resort solely to generalized slurs of how preterism is wrong and in a nutshell is heresy, etc., that is throwing dirt. It is not doing what you should be doing... using BIBLICAL details to prove your point.

start The fact is the you and all preterists use the book of Josephus as a "text book" to base your assumptions on.

That is a lie. I already asked you once to quote one post where I used Josephus as proof to you in all our chats after you said all that I have done is shown you Josephus. In reality, and you know it, all that I have done is use BIBLE showing biblical details in verses to prove my case. Not once have I used Josephus with you.

I am just too lazy(not worth my time) to look back in the posts and frankly, not in the mood to debate this stuff anymore.

Cop out.

Your buddy(the carnal evangelist) was tempting my old man to come off the cross and this subject became a big "turn off" to me. You guys can have at it. I have seen the DARK side of this preterism thing, and it aint pretty.

That is just what I predicted. You would find something to leave the discussion over without ever answering biblical issues that we presented. It's become Typical.

And talk about the dark side. Every time we talk you sling dirt and stop answering biblical questions. Again, typical.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Soon you will once again say you cannot respond any more and we never will get your responses, once again

This is what I predicted, Sean. Same old same old.