2 Thess 2

[Michael The Disciple]

Part 4

2 Thess 2:7

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

This verse puzzles many as it once did me. Yet what if this is a translation problem? What if its not talking about anything being taken away?

My New King James Interlinear renders it like this on page 718.

For mystery already is at work only until from the midst he comes.

This would indicate the mystery of iniquity is at work until FROM THE MIDST (of the work of iniquity) he comes, speaking of the man of sin.

So rather than something being taken away something or someone is coming from the midst. So when he comes from the midst speaks of the coming from the midst of iniquity of the man of sin.

8-9

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

So when the man of sin comes from the midst of iniquity it is his revelation to the world. Paul says Jesus will destroy him with the brightness of HIS COMING.

10-12



10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Paul says if we love not the truth we will perish. We will receive a strong delusion. Let us love the truth and search it out as fine gold. It is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that in this context "loving the truth" is a mere reference to Acts 2:8 as most Apostolics seem to believe.

[Sean]

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.



Ummmm.

It is a guy(fella).

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Sean

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.



Ummmm.

It is a guy(fella).

Agreed.

[Sean]

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order:


All saints from the resurrected ones with Christ from the grave at Calvary until the catching away(all are firstfruits)...


Christ the firstfruits;



All tribulation saints that are slaughtered during the great tribulation(not part of the firstfruits)....


afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

[Michael The Disciple]

Paul said the man of sin sits in the temple of God. Not in a temple dedicated to himself.

So explain this please.

Daniel 11:36-37

36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Does not this sound like the same thing Paul said to the Thessalonians about the man of sin?

Is it not in the context of the great tribulation and the resurrection of the dead which happens in the very next chapter?

And please read this. A few verses later and in the same context.

45And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

A palace that belongs to him. The man who says HE IS ABOVE EVERY GOD.

This palace or temple belongs to the man of sin. He obviously will sit in it declaring himself God.

Again look at context. The verses that EXPRESSLY follow verse 45 which states the tabernacle of his palace will stand in the glorious holy mountain.

The next 3 verses say this:

Daniel 12:1-3

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Its all IN THE SAME CONTEXT.

The evil king/man of sin. His palace sitting where it ought not in Jerusalem. The great tribulation and resurrection of the dead. Its all there.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So explain this please.

Daniel 11:36-37

36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Does not this sound like the same thing Paul said to the Thessalonians about the man of sin?

Is it not in the context of the great tribulation and the resurrection of the dead which happens in the very next chapter?

And please read this. A few verses later and in the same context.

45And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

A palace that belongs to him. The man who says HE IS ABOVE EVERY GOD.

This palace or temple belongs to the man of sin. He obviously will sit in it declaring himself God.

Again look at context. The verses that EXPRESSLY follow verse 45 which states the tabernacle of his palace will stand in the glorious holy mountain.

The next 3 verses say this:

Daniel 12:1-3

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Its all IN THE SAME CONTEXT.

The evil king/man of sin. His palace sitting where it ought not in Jerusalem. The great tribulation and resurrection of the dead. Its all there.

Paul said the man of sin sits in the temple (naos) of God. There is no way around that, brother. The man of sin is the "son of perdition", a title that is used elsewhere only of Judas, the fallen apostle. Showing the man of sin is a false elder in the church of God.

Until you understand the plain explanations of Paul, you will misunderstand the apocalyptic visions of Daniel.

You are jumping around in Daniel. Begin with ch 2, then progress through the book to add understanding, to build a picture of what was to take place.

THEN work through the gospels, UP TO the Olivet prophecy. Then tackle that. Then look at the rest of NT prophecy. A picture emerges, but you won't see it if you already have a picture painted for you by popular booksellers.

[Sean]

You are jumping around in Daniel.

Begin with ch 2, then progress through the book to add understanding, to build a picture of what was to take place.

THEN work through the gospels, UP TO the Olivet prophecy. Then tackle that. Then look at the rest of NT prophecy. A picture emerges,

LOL

[Michael The Disciple]

A picture emerges, but you won't see it if you already have a picture painted for you by popular booksellers.

Oh really? Just for your info I have never heard of another human being who teaches about Daniel 11:45 being the temple Paul mentions in 2 Thess.

If you are aware of anyone that does please send me their phone number, address, or link. I'm sure there are some out there. Its just I dont read the "pop" books.

I read a gob of them until 1980. Since then I doubt if I have bought more than 10.

[Michael The Disciple]

Paul said the man of sin sits in the temple (naos) of God. There is no way around that, brother. The man of sin is the "son of perdition", a title that is used elsewhere only of Judas, the fallen apostle. Showing the man of sin is a false elder in the church of God.

Im not going around it. The temple of God Paul refers to is exactly what Jesus refers to here.

First he mentions the falling away.

12Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. 13And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mark 12:12-13

Then he mentions the abomination of desolation.

14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

So to understand Jesus version of what happens IMMEDIATELY BEFORE HE COMES....he points us to the prophet Daniel and mentions something STANDING WHERE IT OUGHT NOT. Amen?

Daniel 11:45

And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

I asked YOU to explain this. Instead you reinterated what you already said and made no attempt to expain the simple fact that between Daniel 11:36 and Daniel 12:2.....eleven verses, we have theses 4 things mentioned.

Verse 36...A man who exalts HIMSELF as god and above every god.

Verse 45...He has a palace/temple placed STANDING WHERE IT OUGHT NOT......in the glorious land specifically in Jerusalem.

12:1...A time of trouble such as never was to that time or never will be again. Easily compared to what Jesus said would occur just before he comes. See Mark 13:19

12:2...The resurrection of the dead.

Its all there. The end time scenario. Not from a "pop" book but by doing what Jesus pointed us to do. Searching the Prophet Daniel for something STANDING WHERE IT OUGHT NOT.

How do you explain this?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Im not going around it. The temple of God Paul refers to is exactly what Jesus refers to here.

If Antichrist or anyone else builds a temple for themselves it is NOT "the temple of God". More importantly, it is not the NAOS of God, a phrase Paul ONLY uses to describe the church of God.

First he mentions the falling away.

12Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. 13And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mark 12:12-13

You begin with an error. Jesus is not describing the apostasy or falling away. He is describing division and warfare and betrayal. Apostasy is when people fall away from apostolic truth and backslide from the gospel. As I already showed, Paul, Peter, Jude, and John all taught there would be a falling away from the faith that would soon begin (John said it was already happening). They explain the apostasy as people within the church departing from the original faith. Jesus is not describing a falling away in the passage you quoted. He is speaking about violence and division in the world against the saints. Worldlings persecuting the saints is not the "falling away".

Then he mentions the abomination of desolation.

14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

So to understand Jesus version of what happens IMMEDIATELY BEFORE HE COMES....he points us to the prophet Daniel and mentions something STANDING WHERE IT OUGHT NOT. Amen?

And in Luke that abomination of desolation is related to Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, leading to its destruction, which is how the temple was destroyed. Which was the fulfillment of Christ's prophecy concerning Jerusalem and the temple, destroyed in 70 AD. Pushing the Olivet prophecy completely into the future destroys one of the most powerful proofs that Jesus is the Christ: His prophesied destruction of the temple and city of Jerusalem. You cannot take a prophecy that was fulfilled in the first century and throw it off into the indefinite future and say you're still waiting to see it come to pass. If that's the case, we can do that with EVERY prophecy of the Bible and prophecy becomes meaningless.

Daniel 11:45

And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

The phrase "temple of God" is not there. There is nothing there to even suggest such a thing. He plants the tabernacles (plural, tents) of his palace (pavilion, which is a main tent used by generals or nobles during military campaigns). Nothing about a temple of God being built.

... between Daniel 11:36 and Daniel 12:2.....eleven verses, we have theses 4 things mentioned.

Verse 36...A man who exalts HIMSELF as god and above every god.

And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
(Daniel 11:36-39)

It doesn't say he will exalt himself AS God. It says he exalts himself above every god, but also that he will honour a foreign god not known to his ancestors. In fact, the prophecy in this chapter of Daniel concerns Antiochus Epiphanes, who fulfilled the details of the prophecy rather pointedly. Antiochus abandoned the worship of his ancestors' gods, introduced the worship of Jupiter Capitolinus (a god foreign to both Judea and his own native country and people). He established himself as the final arbiter of all religion in his kingdom and in Judea (exalting himself above all gods), dictating who was to be worshipped and who not, and how, etc. He was an irreligious man using religion for his own devices and purposes, he worshipped "the god of forces", that is to say, raw naked power. He cared for nothing but himself and his own power. He set up forts throughout the land, and divided the land by lot for tax purposes which was given (in part) to the people he set up over the various districts. The entire chapter deals largely with Antiochus Epiphanes and his conflicts with Egypt, the Romans, and his terrorizing of Judea.

And yes, that includes the "abomination of desolation". Daniel said this:

And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
(Daniel 11:31)

Please notice this event occurs BEFORE the event of verse 45 which speaks of a king planting the tabernacles of his palace (pavilion) in the "glorious holy mountain". You have been claiming this collection of tabernacles of a palace is not only the temple of God (!) but is also the "abomination of desolation", yet Daniel's prophecy clearly makes a distinction between the two. The abomination of desolation occurs BEFORE any planting of tabernacles, they are two different things.

But in any event, what is this "abomination of desolation"? History itself tells us:

The fifteenth day of Casleu, in the hundreth and fiue and fourtieth yeere, they set vp the abomination of desolation vpon the altar, and they buylded altars throughout the cities of Iuda on euery side.
(1 Maccabees 1:57)

Jesus said in His Olivet prophecy when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel, then flee into the mountains because the destruction of Jerusalem is at hand. Luke clarifies His words as "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies". Why? Because the Romans were coming to do the same thing Antiochus Epiphanes did - destroy Jerusalem and set up an abomination (idol) on the temple site. Which, by the way, is exactly what they did. Antiochus invaded Jerusalem and set up an idol, and slaughtered numerous Judeans. The Romans invaded Jerusalem, desecrated the altar, destroyed the temple, and set up their idolatrous standards on the ruined site, and slaughtered over a million Judeans.

12:1...A time of trouble such as never was to that time or never will be again. Easily compared to what Jesus said would occur just before he comes. See Mark 13:19

Daniel never said "or never will be again", you are inserting words that do not exist. Daniel said this:

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
(Daniel 12:1)

That is not the same as JEsus saying "such as never was, no, nor ever shall be". The depredations of the Judeans under the terror of Antiochus Epiphanes was the greatest time of trouble they had ever seen up to that point. Jesus however said the time trouble that was to come would be not only greater than that of Antiochus, but would not be surpassed by any afterwards. So the two times of trouble (one in Daniel 12, and one in Matthew 24) are NOT THE SAME.

Furthermore, according to futurism, the "great tribulation" which you expect is to be the last tribulation, because it leads right into the Millennium. At the end of the Millennium is the final conflict, but the Gog and Magog army coming against the camp of RESURRECTED and IMMORTAL SAINTS can hardly be called a "tribulation". Yet, Jesus's words imply there would, indeed, be tribulations AFTER the "great tribulation" - which proves the great tribulation is not what futurists like yourself think it is.

12:2...The resurrection of the dead.

Here's the context:

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
(Daniel 12:1-4)

Daniel was being assured that the tribulation his people would experience under Antiochus would come to an end. He also assured Daniel there would be a resurrection of the dead, and that the righteous would shine forth as the stars, and so forth. The angel speaking to Daniel is not giving a play-by-play scenario of the events which would follow immediately one after the other. In prophecy, events that are separated by centuries and even millennia are often spoken of as occurring right after one another in close proximity. The angel did not say "and at that time the dead shall arise" etc. He was finishing the prophecy, telling Daniel "don't worry, everything turns out fine, go your way, the book is sealed until the time of the end, knowledge shall increase."

Its all there. The end time scenario. Not from a "pop" book but by doing what Jesus pointed us to do. Searching the Prophet Daniel for something STANDING WHERE IT OUGHT NOT.

How do you explain this?

No, it's not "all there - the end time scenario". The end time scenario you believe is a scenario created by book sellers, it is not the scenario described in the Bible, as I just proved. You inserted several key parts of your scenario into the text where they don't exist. You also took various statements out of context, and you ignored the very real and proven historical fulfillments of prophecies you believe are yet future.

There is no way a power mad heathen king's military tents in conquered Jerusalem equate to "the temple (naos) of God". Especially when "the temple (naos) of God" is a special phrase used by Paul exclusively for the church.

I'm sorry brother, but futurism is simply wrong on prophecy. It goes against the very purpose of Bible prophecy itself, which is to vindicate God as the true God, who is able to foretell history because He controls history. Futurism takes numerous prophecies which have come to pass in striking exactitude, and throws them off into an unknown "sometime in the future", robbing the Bible of many of it's most powerful prophetical fulfillments. Which is why the predictions of futurists never come to pass, they aren't meant to - everything's always "just around the corner". And most importantly, the identities of the man of sin, antichrist, the beast, the false prophet, the little horn, etc are hidden.

Futurism was invented by a Jesuit during the Counter Reformation to do precisely that.