Should we teach others to rebel against Standards?

[Aquila]

Not to mention that if we teach the commandments of men as doctrines, that undermines the entire Acts 2:38 message. Throughout the Christian world, various Apostolic organizations have become heavily criticized for their legalisms. And these legalisms have been dissected by mainstream theologians an used to illustrate propensity for error...thereby allowing them to argue why anyone should believe our position on Acts 2:38 when we're outside of Scripture on so many other things.

[Apostolic1ness]

Sad to see some would try to justify their "anything goes" beliefs. Is this an apostolic forum or charismatic forum? Many here seem to have a hatred toward the more conservative side of Pentecost. Glad to see men like Elder Ballestero still preaching the truth.

So why do some of you have a problem with women in dresses or skirts?
Why do some of you have a problem with men with short hair and women with long hair?

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

Sad to see some would try to justify their "anything goes" beliefs. Is this an apostolic forum or charismatic forum? ?

This is an Apostolic Forum which includes Conservative, Liberal, and former Apostolics.

Consider this an opportunity to defend the faith, and also to learn from others.

There are differences of belief here in Soteriology, Christology, Eschatology, and Sanctification.

There are also people outside Oneness Pentecostalism who come in from time to time to debate us.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

Sad to see some would try to justify their "anything goes" beliefs. Is this an apostolic forum or charismatic forum? Many here seem to have a hatred toward the more conservative side of Pentecost. Glad to see men like Elder Ballestero still preaching the truth.

So why do some of you have a problem with women in dresses or skirts?
Why do some of you have a problem with men with short hair and women with long hair?

Maybe there is some hatred toward the more conservative side of Pentecost from some people, however that does mean that everyone who disagrees with them on some issue hates them.

The issue is that is up to Pentecostal preachers like Ballestero to defend their doctrines using biblical texts and if they can not, then they can not simply use the "hatred" excuse to avoid giving a biblical answer.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

Sad to see some would try to justify their "anything goes" beliefs. Is this an apostolic forum or charismatic forum? Many here seem to have a hatred toward the more conservative side of Pentecost. Glad to see men like Elder Ballestero still preaching the truth.

So why do some of you have a problem with women in dresses or skirts?
Why do some of you have a problem with men with short hair and women with long hair?

I don't think it is so much having a problem with women wearing dresses or skirts. I think it is the issue of condemning women to Hell, disfellowshipping them, and treating women as though they are to be reserved for firewood if they don't wear dresses and skirts.

Also, I don't have a problem with teaching that men have short hair and that women have long hair. That's biblical. The notion of "uncut" hair for women is debatable.

I believe in Christian modesty. But I believe it is a Christian discipline, a practice. It is something that develops over time. It is something that should be embraced through study and practiced by the individual out of love and for the sake of edification. I don't see it as something that should be forced by threat of Hell.

It's like the beard standard. It's often said, "We believe in strictly sticking to the book." But the fact is... we have many traditions of man being taught for doctrines.

[votivesoul]

Making a single universal theory out of Romans 13 is a bad idea, in my opinion, because governments change or are different from one location to the next. What the hidden Christian in North Korea has to do versus what an American Christian gets to do, are two different things, for example.

Here in the USA, and really the "West", but elsewhere, too, we the people have the power of election and the ability to literally see laws change, or be interpreted differently by or through the judicial system.

This shows that in such a governmental structure, our laws are very mutable. But God's laws are not mutable. So what do I mean as it relates to Romans 13?

Here in WI I can write to and/or call my state legislature and even get a sit-down with the governor, perhaps, and attempt to sway public policy through personal lobbying of what I believe to be right, moral, ideas that best serves the interests of my home state.

But a universal theory of Romans 13 that has to be applied in one direction only would suggest me doing the above is tantamount to resisting the powers that be that were ordained by God, because by actively pursuing political and legislative changes, I am making a de facto claim that I believe that those currently in existence are wrong, and that the people in power who implemented them are likewise in the wrong, and so, will use whatever ability I have, up to and including my voting rights, to see the entire system brought down.

I may or may not succeed. But that is the whole thrust of what our government is supposed to be.

But that's also a built in resistance to the powers that be, since it is God and not man, that institutes governments and those who hold office in them.

So unless we are going to advocate total abstinence from political and governmental involvement (and maybe we should???) any involvement whatsoever could be construed as resisting the powers that be, because our very own system of government actively encourages it, thus demonstrating a revolt against what Romans 13 teaches, if there's only one universal theory being presented.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Making a single universal theory out of Romans 13 is a bad idea, in my opinion, because governments change or are different from one location to the next. What the hidden Christian in North Korea has to do versus what an American Christian gets to do, are two different things, for example.

Here in the USA, and really the "West", but elsewhere, too, we the people have the power of election and the ability to literally see laws change, or be interpreted differently by or through the judicial system.

This shows that in such a governmental structure, our laws are very mutable. But God's laws are not mutable. So what do I mean as it relates to Romans 13?

Here in WI I can write to and/or call my state legislature and even get a sit-down with the governor, perhaps, and attempt to sway public policy through personal lobbying of what I believe to be right, moral, ideas that best serves the interests of my home state.

But a universal theory of Romans 13 that has to be applied in one direction only would suggest me doing the above is tantamount to resisting the powers that be that were ordained by God, because by actively pursuing political and legislative changes, I am making a de facto claim that I believe that those currently in existence are wrong, and that the people in power who implemented them are likewise in the wrong, and so, will use whatever ability I have, up to and including my voting rights, to see the entire system brought down.

I may or may not succeed. But that is the whole thrust of what our government is supposed to be.

But that's also a built in resistance to the powers that be, since it is God and not man, that institutes governments and those who hold office in them.

So unless we are going to advocate total abstinence from political and governmental involvement (and maybe we should???) any involvement whatsoever could be construed as resisting the powers that be, because our very own system of government actively encourages it, thus demonstrating a revolt against what Romans 13 teaches, if there's only one universal theory being presented.

I see what you are getting at, I referenced Romans 13 because I could interject my words, but what's the point if the Word of God is forever settled in Heaven? So I quoted the Word of God instead. What was being said is that it's ok to do illegal activities, as they are not bad in and of theirself. Which I do understand that line of thinking,. But Paul says something completely opposite in Romans 13:1-2.

Now, all I was saying is that if a law does not directly contradict the word of God you should follow it. If it does God's law is greater. I was saying only this period. What you are saying is true brother, and should be greatly considered.

Me personally I'm a felon I never voted, what I do is trust God. I don't put my vote forth especially in places 1 I don't know even who these people are, or what they are about. 2. Where I don't have full confidence in someone. I never have seen a candidate yet that fits that criteria. So in that I trust God. I may not agree and be submissive to the law of the land, but I keep the Spirit of obedience to it. (The Lord is working on me, He's not finished with me yet!!) So while I may not agree with it, I just do it because what's being said doesnt contradict the word of the Lord.

But what I was saying isn't the only interpretation of Romans 13, because your right that could be something totally different somewhere else, and under different conditions. Although in America I believe mostly, we aren't faced with things that are contrary to the word and law of God, making it fit for us to not follow. But, in the case of Kim Davis and Homosexual marriage she was correct that clearly went against the Law of God, she stood against it. All I can say is good for her!

As people we look for reasons, to justify doing what we believe is best. "But even the wrath of man will yet praise God", that's such a beautiful truth out of the Word of God. It just let's me know, it's all in His hands. It let's me know that all these in a position of power, God has already took that into consideration. Whether for good or bad, and it will not hurt the plan of God. In the end it will yet, give Him praise. In that we should walk in liberty, knowing it's all in His hands!