Have we lost respect for the ministry?

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

I think it would definitely be an issue for that man or women.

The question was have we lost respect for the ministry?

What is the reason for the ministry?

Should this man be banned form ever doing anything in the church as far as ministerial wise? I cannot say, absolutely! I believe the very foundation of our belief is forgiveness and restoration. We are too much, "off with his or her head".

What does it truly mean, not what we have been taught by a human mind of vengeance or carnality, the gifts and calling of God are without repentance?

Also, the text about gifts and calling of God without repentance seems to be referring to the election of the Jews, a covenant thing. Not referring to gifts of ministry or office of bishop.

The issue isn't can he be restored, but holding a ministerial position, he is the asst pastor, while married to the woman he left his wife over..

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Does that work the same for the pastor that went to prison for molesting his daughters? His calling to the ministry still intact?

That's a great question.

Yet, more important than his ministry would be the need for restoration. And I mean his salvation. This goes for adultery, etc...

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

That's a great question.

Yet, more important than his ministry would be the need for restoration. And I mean his salvation. This goes for adultery, etc...

Right, anyone can restored to the Lord. God is that powerful, but holding a position or office of ministry is the thing. So what is your answer? Can a convicted molester that was a pastor be restored to being a pastor again?

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Also, the text about gifts and calling of God without repentance seems to be referring to the election of the Jews, a covenant thing. Not referring to gifts of ministry or office of bishop.

The issue isn't can he be restored, but holding a ministerial position, he is the asst pastor, while married to the woman he left his wife over..

You think that was just for the jews, and cannot be applied to a persons calling? It cannot be a principal applied to the new covenant church?

I understand that it's a touchy subject, I just see many in the church salivating over the fact that they can pronounce judgement on the situation that was brought up. It's like they want to be the one pushing the drug into the vein of the man or women being put to death.

Truly, the man that committed the act, would have to restored by prayer, fasting, counseling. I believe the current leadership, and saints would have to agree for a position in the church for that man or women. I believe God can still use him.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Right, anyone can restored to the Lord. God is that powerful, but holding a position or office of ministry is the thing. So what is your answer? Can a convicted molester that was a pastor be restored to being a pastor again?

Being the Pastor, probably that will not happen. Being used ever again in the ministry, I can say yes he could be used again.

I give bible studies to inmates weekly. I have given bible studies for years in the prisons and jails of Colorado, and now here in Utah. Been to high max prisons, and county jails. Had bible studies with inmates that will never see the outside of a facility again. Being used again after a horrific crime isn't out of the bounds of impossible, it just determines who your ministering to.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Being the Pastor, probably that will not happen. Being used ever again in the ministry, I can say yes he could be used again.

I give bible studies to inmates weekly. I have given bible studies for years in the prisons and jails of Colorado, and now here in Utah. Been to high max prisons, and county jails. Had bible studies with inmates that will never see the outside of a facility again. Being used again after a horrific crime isn't out of the bounds of impossible, it just determines who your ministering to.

How many of those inmates were pastors when they committed their crimes?

How are you defining "in the ministry "? Biblically, there wasn't "pastor of the church", the church was governed by elders/bishops(both the same). Would not an asst pastor be an elder(bishop) in the church?

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

You think that was just for the jews, and cannot be applied to a persons calling? It cannot be a principal applied to the new covenant church?

I understand that it's a touchy subject, I just see many in the church salivating over the fact that they can pronounce judgement on the situation that was brought up. It's like they want to be the one pushing the drug into the vein of the man or women being put to death.

Truly, the man that committed the act, would have to restored by prayer, fasting, counseling. I believe the current leadership, and saints would have to agree for a position in the church for that man or women. I believe God can still use him.

We can't make the bible say more than what it's saying.

No one salivating for judgement in this case, it's about the rightness of holding an office of eldership while married to the woman you left your wife over.

I say it's a lack of respect for the ministry to allow it. Leadership//saints can agree to error, it's happens.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

If I'm wrong about the way I'm reading your post, please let me know. However, why is it so hard to believe that a man that does commit adultery cannot be, "restored" like you have written? If he doesn't ever become Pastor again, then fine, does that mean God stops using him in ministry? The very nature of God is forgiveness! And if it's not yours or mine, then we are not saved!

Paul said, "ye which are spiritual restore such a one with the spirit of meekness..."

What does restore mean?

If a secretary takes money from the church, is she to be kicked out? Maybe drag her or him to the front and rebuke them in front of the whole church. Tell them to get out of the church, and go be a baptist. What is the church for?

Can an adulterer, whore, embezzler, etc... can any of these be restored?

Upon repentance they can be restored back to the community of faith. But they have disqualified themselves being a deacon or elder.

1 Timothy 3:2-13 KJV
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; [3] Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; [4] One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; [5] (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) [6] Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. [7] Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. [8] Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; [9] Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. [10] And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. [11] Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. [12] Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. [13] For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 1:12-13 KJV
And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; [13] Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Upon repentance they can be restored back to the community of faith. But they have disqualified themselves being a deacon or elder.

1 Timothy 3:2-13 KJV
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; [3] Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; [4] One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; [5] (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) [6] Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. [7] Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. [8] Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; [9] Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. [10] And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. [11] Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. [12] Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. [13] For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 1:12-13 KJV
And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; [13] Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

🫡 again!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Upon repentance they can be restored back to the community of faith. But they have disqualified themselves being a deacon or elder.

1 Timothy 3:2-13 KJV
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; [3] Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; [4] One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; [5] (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) [6] Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. [7] Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. [8] Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; [9] Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. [10] And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. [11] Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. [12] Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. [13] For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 1:12-13 KJV
And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; [13] Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

And just to keep it in context, we aren't talking about bad living BEFORE becoming a Christian, but AFTER being a Christian, and AFTER being put in a position of responsibility in a congregation.

Although Paul's testimony hints that even some preconversion sins may disqualify from later postconversion ministry.