That period Bro Flame decided to "go charismatic"

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

Bro Benincasa, I apologize for the delayed response. We were off yesterday for MLK Jr. Day, and Sunday morning we got some snow here in South Georgia. I have to figure out how to reply without copy and pasting everything (and I haven't been back over to the help discussion I started here on AFF), so I'll just reply this way.

Everyone is busy, but I appreciate you stopping by to finish the conversation we started.

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

I've enjoyed our conversation, but neither of us are going to change our minds.

I have also enjoyed our conversation, I'm glad we had the chance to discuss this subject. Changing of minds can only be done by the willingness to look at the information, and step out of our box. Understanding that the scripture is the lamp, and the Holy Ghost holds that lamp to show us the way. We first must have the willingness to accept hard truths which come against religious ecclesiastical traditions. Jesus is the only voice we must hear, and the voice of strangers we must run from. Having said all that, my prayer is that you will continue to seek the leading of the Holy Ghost, and accept what He has for you, and your family, and church family.

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

You are firm that women are not to preach, while I am firm that they can.

The Ecclesiastical paradigm of preaching is mainly conducted from a pulpit. That's really just a very small aspect of what we do as "preachers." Jesus appointed an all male ministry, and the Apostle Paul solidified the idea of all male leadership mainly has to do with the masculine of headship. Husbands are the head of the wife Ephesians 5:23. The tribes of Israel had male elders for each tribe. I believe what I believe because the Bible teaches masculine leadership over everything. Masculinity is first priority in the creation of the Church. Headship should be a simple thing for Apostolic Pentecostals, especially due to our practice of obeying 1 Corinthians 11 head covering. The Apostle Paul establishes a hierarchy: Christ is the head of man, man is the head of woman, and God is the head of Christ. Simple. The Apostle shows us that it isn't just about hairdos, but it is specifically about the headship of the masculine. The Apostle strongly comes against gender fluidity. The Apostle points out that if a man has long hair it is vile and disgusting symbol. Cross dressing in Deuteronomy 22:5 explains how God views it as an abomination, vile disgusting symbol to Him. It isn't just merely wearing pants. But, it actually goes into the wearing of battle armor, or the tools of labor. It is taking on the roles of the masculine. Adam was created first for a good reason. Adam was blamed for allowing his wife to get into a religious discussion with the serpent. So, firmness against a woman "preaching?" My kind brother, with all due respect. I must say, it is way deeper than just having a sister spitting, and screaming into a microphone for an hour.

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

While two entirely different positions, I do believe we have both handled this discussion maturely, and for that, I do thank you.

You have been a total gentlemen. I appreciate that, more than you could imagine.

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

I cannot imagine where I would be if it weren't for the Holy Ghost-filled women in my life.

Amen, the same here. Holy Ghost-filled anointed sisters are a very important part of the Apostolic movement. To this we are in agreement, just not in agreement in how it's applied in certain churches.

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

I want to share some stories with you before I sign off of AFF again for a little while.

It would be a pleasure.

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

My home church, the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ, located in a little community in South Georgia, was kept open by a Holy Ghost-filled woman. The church went through a trying time -- the membership dwindled due to backsliding, people dying or moving away, and then the pastor (a man, I must add for clarification) passed away. This elderly woman, the Mother of the Church, was left as the sole member. A pastor (again, another man) from another Apostolic church some thirty minutes away heard about all of this and came to the church and put a pad lock on the front door. He told this mother, "You need a man to lead you and you need to leave this church and come to mine." But she wasn't going to let the church she had labored in, saw her husband and children get saved in just close-up and cease to exist.

And I'm glad she didn't give up.

She had her backslidden son come cut the padlock off the front door, she put the lights in her name, and she kept the church clean and open. She went every Sunday, every Wednesday, right by herself. She sang songs to Lord, she read some scriptures, she prayed for the lost and for God to replenish the church she loved with souls full of the Holy Ghost and on fire for the Lord.

Today, I must say that little church is thriving. We have four new babies coming into the church this very year. We have elders, mid-age people, and lots of youth in the church. We're a church full of preachers and teachers. The Holy Ghost flows in our services -- we see healings, deliverance, salvation, restoration.

And it's all because of the faith of a little Holy Ghost-filled woman well on in her life.

I also want to brag on my wife and mother-in-law.

As you may have gathered from what I've shared or by reading in between the lines, I've had a rough life full of ups and downs. Which, to be fair, we all have our sad stories.

My mother-in-law is, without a doubt, the most humble person I've ever had the privilege to meet. She has given herself to God's work and she isn't above being used by Him in anyway He sees fit. I have seen her roll on the ground at tent revivals with people praying through to the Holy Ghost. I've seen her weep before God on the behalf of someone's soul. Specifically, I've seen her plead with God to change His mind and give my mother one more chance to be saved. She begged God, "Please God! This is Dalton's momma! Please God, one more time!" She's gotten up the altar, drenched in sweat, tired, and in pain from spending hours praying devils out of people possessed. She gives so effortlessly of herself. She has been a big inspiration to me, and she has helped me through some of the toughest times of my life -- when my grandparents died, when my dad has his strokes, when my momma attempted suicide, when my wife and I miscarried our babies. She has been a comfort, a guiding force in my walk with God. She has spoken things into my life, given me a sense of direction and assurance that I've so desperately needed on multiple occasions. I cannot tell you the times I've seen people do her dirty when she has done nothing -- and I mean NOTHING -- but good to them. She has swallowed hurt and still cried out to God on their behalf.

She is a living example of humility and Christianity.

My wife is another strong, driving force in my life. When we got together and especially when we got married, I was a wreck. I was full of depression after years of heartache and being dealt many of lives curve balls. My wife has prayed for me, been a shoulder for me, given me advice, and showed me what love really is supposed to be. She helped me overcome depression and reroute my life and seek after what God has for me to do. She has been my voice of reason, my confidant, my soulmate. She is everything God wants her to be, and she is everything I've ever wanted and could ever possibly need. She is a gifted musician (she can plan anything), she can sing, she writes her own songs, she preaches the house down, she loves our baby and dotes on her. She is a prime example of motherhood and wife-hood (if that's a word). She is anointed and full of the Holy Ghost. I am proud to say I have a Spirit-empowered wife who thrives in the gifts of the Spirit and allows the Spirit to use her as He sees fit to do so.

My mind also goes towards the women who have given their lives to the mission field. Sis Susan Templet has completely devoted herself to the work of God in Ecuador. She has given up the comfort of living in the States, has never married, has no children, but she is sold out to the Apostolic faith and has testimonies upon testimonies about how God has used her to preach, teach, and pull people out of the gutter and into God's church. Sis Janice Alvear (who sometimes posts here) has given herself to the work of God in Brazil, and has been there for decades. God called her when she was a young girl. Like Sis Templet, she has multiple testimonies of how God has used her to save the street children and lead people into God's grace and receive His salvation.

Nothing like testimonies. Now, I wouldn't want to take away from your experiences or the experiences of your church family. Please I implore you, I don't mean for these words to be unkind. You do know that Trinitarian Pentecostals can tell you very similar testimonies? Also the Charismatics, can give you similar testimonies? I believe with my whole being, that God is for us, and not against us. God told Elijah in 1 Kings 19:11-13, that He wasn't in the powerful destroying wind, earthquake, or fire that passed by Elijah's cave; instead, God revealed Himself in a "still small voice." This is demonstrating that God's presence isn't always in overwhelming displays of power, but most of the time directed in quiet leading. The Spirit of Truth will guide us into all truth, John 16:13. We just need to be still and listen to the voice of the Shepherd, John 10:27. I wouldn't want to take away anything from what you mentioned above. It's part of your experiences and faith. But in religious experience we tend to utilize confirmation bias within our church practices. At times viewing a rousing testimony as something to hold up to dissenters as being proof of our ecclesiastical legitimacy. When it fact the scripture states the very opposite. We have to trust the Book, no matter how much it hurts.

The Lord bless you, your wife, your mother in law, your family, and church family. I really mean this.

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

I cannot and will not stand against these women and how God has chosen to use them.

I don't expect you to. I really sincerely believe Jesus is able to reach, us and teach us. I quote this author quite a bit, because I think the saying is true. "Not all who wander are lost." If we truly and passionately seek we will find, knock and the strait door will be opened to us, Matthew 7:7-8.

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

It is by the power and guidance of the Holy Ghost that these women have accomplished what they have for the Kingdom of God. I applaud their obedience, humility, sacrifice, and determination to live and thrive for Jesus.

I hope it all works out for all of you. 45,000 denominations in the United States all believe that the power and guidance of the Holy Ghost is having them accomplish greatness for the Kingdom of God. The Charismatic church you once attended believe the very same thing about themselves. Yet, we can all have a good hair pulling contest over it to see who comes out on top.
The Holy Ghost knows how to reach us, we just need to stay reachable.

Jesus is calling, and we know His voice because we can hear it. But are we all listening?

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

Again, Bro Benincasa, I want to thank you for your time, your questions, and your respect during our discussion.

God bless you and yours.

Thank you my brother. The Lord richly bless you, your wife, your family, and your church family in Jesus name.

Thank you for your time, patience, and effort in bearing with me in these few posts.

[diakonos]

I believe when someone is called, and they're with a godly spouse, then they're both called.

Are you in ministry by virtue of your wife’s calling!?

[Bro Flame]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

You have been a total gentlemen. I appreciate that, more than you could imagine.

Well, I do try to be. Likewise, I do believe you have also conducted yourself as a gentlemen. Just because we disagree does not mean we cannot hold a civil, ongoing conversation. I appreciate your kindness.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Amen, the same here. Holy Ghost-filled anointed sisters are a very important part of the Apostolic movement. To this we are in agreement, just not in agreement in how it's applied in certain churches.

Yes, women are just as important inside the body as we are as men.

What bothers me about the churches I've been in or conversations I've held with men that don't believe women should preach, is how they view their women as a whole.

I've been in churches where the women were second-class citizens, who weren't permitted to speak, let alone pray for anyone, and who were literally scared to death to be used by God.

That isn't of God. No matter how we slice it.

I know a sister whose in her 50s who belongs to a church where women aren't permitted to do anything without the approval of the leadership and without their husband leading them into it. This sister came to our church and the Holy Ghost wanted to use her to give a message in tongues to the church. She was so bound by what this church has drilled into her head. Despite continuing pleas from our church leadership for her to obey the Holy Ghost, she couldn't erase that which she has sat under for so long. She wept because she felt like she had disobeyed God by even appearing as if she was stepping outside of her boundaries as a women in the service.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Nothing like testimonies. Now, I wouldn't want to take away from your experiences or the experiences of your church family. Please I implore you, I don't mean for these words to be unkind. You do know that Trinitarian Pentecostals can tell you very similar testimonies? Also the Charismatics, can give you similar testimonies? I believe with my whole being, that God is for us, and not against us. God told Elijah in 1 Kings 19:11-13, that He wasn't in the powerful destroying wind, earthquake, or fire that passed by Elijah's cave; instead, God revealed Himself in a "still small voice." This is demonstrating that God's presence isn't always in overwhelming displays of power, but most of the time directed in quiet leading. The Spirit of Truth will guide us into all truth, John 16:13. We just need to be still and listen to the voice of the Shepherd, John 10:27. I wouldn't want to take away anything from what you mentioned above. It's part of your experiences and faith. But in religious experience we tend to utilize confirmation bias within our church practices. At times viewing a rousing testimony as something to hold up to dissenters as being proof of our ecclesiastical legitimacy. When it fact the scripture states the very opposite. We have to trust the Book, no matter how much it hurts.

The Lord bless you, your wife, your mother in law, your family, and church family. I really mean this.

I'm a little unsure what you mean by Trinitarian Pentecostals and Charismatics having similar testimonies. Of course, I know they could tell similar stories, but I'm not making the connection, unless that connection is that what they say and what I've said is somehow "false" because they preach a triune God and I say women can preach.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, and forgive me if I've made any assumptions.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Thank you my brother. The Lord richly bless you, your wife, your family, and your church family in Jesus name.

Thank you for your time, patience, and effort in bearing with me in these few posts.

I do certainly appreciate all the well wishes. The same to you and yours.

[Bro Flame]

Originally Posted by diakonos

Are you in ministry by virtue of your wife’s calling!?

No, but I do believe God intends the husband and wife to work together. While they might not share the exact same calling, I do believe that they are called together. They should work in unity.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

Well, I do try to be. Likewise, I do believe you have also conducted yourself as a gentlemen. Just because we disagree does not mean we cannot hold a civil, ongoing conversation. I appreciate your kindness.

I deal with everyone on a case to case basis. I appreciate that you do the same.

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

Yes, women are just as important inside the body as we are as men.

Agreed, women are just as important just holding specific roles. The Bible teaches from Genesis to Revelation that the Church has male headship, while the New Jerusalem is the mother of us all. Maleship leads and defends, while womanhood nurtures. In the New Testament we see male leadership. Epistles written entirely by men.

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

What bothers me about the churches I've been in or conversations I've held with men that don't believe women should preach, is how they view their women as a whole.

That's too bad. No matter what my personal experiences may be among "churches" I still need to stick with book, chapter, and verse. 45,000 denominations in the United States and who knows how many offshoots have evolved from those denominations. People are people, and individuals with their own thoughts and feelings run those many groups. The ecclesiastical pendulum swings both ways. There was an old pastor in Miami name of William Henry Dunn, who said the road is narrow, and both sides have a ditch. We are told in scripture to look well to our going Proverbs 4:25-27. Yet, I wasn't there when you had these experiences or conversations. So, I would need clear explanation to better judge them.

I don't create my theology from my experiences. Just as we shouldn't formulate our eschatology because what we see in a newspaper. If I see some individual calling a sister up to the pulpit to tell her where she lost her car keys, the first initial of her cat's name, and her home address? I'm not going to incorporate that into my theology. Or uphold it as Biblical. If I'm visiting a church and they are all building bomb shelters in Miami Beach, because they believe Donald Trump is the Antichrist. I won't be considering all that as a Bible example. The Bible is very clear, and more than able to show us the way. Yet, if we allow cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias to skew our vision of the Word of God. Then our experiences will justify whatever doctrine we hold as our pet. Therefore scripture that contradicts a long held group belief, the resulting discomfort (dissonance) often causes people to rationalize or even completely ignore the scriptures, or to become more strident in their inaccurate position. All to protect their mental image of themselves within their particular church group. It is the same on both sides, the women preacher camp, and the no woman preacher camp. We can have very far extremes on both sides. Yet, none of these camps are a monolith for everyone who happens to believe in women preachers or who doesn't believe in women preachers.

Everything is on a case to case basis. Therefore you shouldn't use a bad example to justify why you believe what you believe. Every religion should be judged by its best. So, in the same way we should examine our Apostolic brethren far better with their varying views. We should look for those Apostolic men and women, who are the cream of the crop, the very best example who hold different views from us. What I mean is their teaching concerning female preachers and no female preachers. They should be able to articulate their beliefs with scripture, and explain those scriptures logically.

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

I've been in churches where the women were second-class citizens, who weren't permitted to speak, let alone pray for anyone, and who were literally scared to death to be used by God.

This is where we use a confirmation bias. You are using a horrible example, and hoping it will win an argument. It's like saying everyone in the "No Women Preacher" group are hanging around smoking cigarettes, in tank top t-shirts, drinking beer, and screaming at their abused women to fix them some supper?

Like I said, we can find extremes on both sides, yet, these groups have regular rank and file people running the show. Yet, we shouldn't just judge with carnal judgement, but with righteous judgement, with the scriptures.

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

That isn't of God. No matter how we slice it.

Lots of things that go on around us aren't of God, no matter how you slice it. That's why we take it to the Book, no matter whose side you are on. We examine it with the Book.

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

I know a sister whose in her 50s who belongs to a church where women aren't permitted to do anything without the approval of the leadership and without their husband leading them into it. This sister came to our church and the Holy Ghost wanted to use her to give a message in tongues to the church. She was so bound by what this church has drilled into her head. Despite continuing pleas from our church leadership for her to obey the Holy Ghost, she couldn't erase that which she has sat under for so long. She wept because she felt like she had disobeyed God by even appearing as if she was stepping outside of her boundaries as a women in the service.

Well, I would need quite a bit of information concerning this example. You introduce the sister, as belonging to another church? Then you let us know she visited your church. This would make her a visitor? She would just be their temporarily, then later leave to return to her own church family? Could you please straighten that out for me? Is that what is happening? Also How'd the leadership know the Holy Ghost wanted her to give a message in tongues? When couples or anyone for that matter come to your church to visit, just passing through. Do they have to run a doctrinal gauntlet?

I can understand getting an ecclesiastical flamethrower launched at me from the pulpit, for a good 30 minutes. For the simple reason the preacher (male or female) knows I don't believe in their particular doctrine. That's cool with me, I'm more than happy to discuss it when they climb down and invite me to lunch. There are also hit and runs, where you get doctrinally smacked in the teeth, and when it's all over, there will be no one to one Bible study. I'm also good with that, because some people are chicken. They can put you on full blast from a platform, in front of their peeps. But aren't willing to discuss how you are wrong over some nice smoked boudin, and gumbo, with hot links. Oh, and a nice big hunk of red velvet cake! I digress, what were we talking about?

Yeah, visitors from other churches getting pushed to do something outside of what they were taught by their church elders.

Me personally, I'm not looking to traumatize anyone, then sending them back to their church family. So, they can tell their elders and church family how I burned them with ecclesiastical cigarettes for an hour? In preaching we all have made mistakes, we all have dropped the watermelon. As time goes on we should learn from our mistakes which the Holy Ghost points out to us. Where seasoned elder men and women give us some good advice. Advice which is Biblical, and logical. So, some poor trembling sister doesn't return to her church family saying she was swarmed to do something she was never taught. Apostolic visitors are just that "visitors." They are already church people, who (as you stated) belong to another church. Are we going to convert them to the way we believe? Or to see our vision of Apostolic One God Pentecost which we feel is correct? Or are we looking to fish in another church's fish tank? I'm not saying you and your people are doing that. I'm saying, what benefit is it for anyone to try to convert an apostolic visitor or pressure another apostolic from another church? They must eventually return to their church family home. Who will thoroughly, and completely remove anything that was said to them. Especially if they had a bad experience.

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

I'm a little unsure what you mean by Trinitarian Pentecostals and Charismatics having similar testimonies. Of course, I know they could tell similar stories, but I'm not making the connection, unless that connection is that what they say and what I've said is somehow "false" because they preach a triune God and I say women can preach.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, and forgive me if I've made any assumptions.

Yes, everyone in Christendom has some amazing testimonies. I brought up Trinitarians and Charismatics not to say what you said was false. But, to simply point out, just because these different groups can raise the dead, or feed the 5,000. Doesn't mean their doctrines are Biblical. I have wonderful testimonies throughout my time in and before I even came to the Apostolic faith. All attributed to God's power. yet, even though these events will inspire faith, and bring tears to the eyes with joy. They still don't vindicate our doctrinal standings. They prove that God is Good, that He will bless who He will bless. What we believe doctrinally must be placed under the microscope of the God's Word. Not our good thoughts and warm feelings.

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

I do certainly appreciate all the well wishes. The same to you and yours.

Thank you so very much for the good discussion. The Lord bless you and your family immensely.