Why are UPC church's so sectarian?

[Truly Blessed]

Originally Posted by Consapostolic1

Fear of influence from those of lesser standards.

Fear of the influence of the real truth is probably more accurate. Truth doesn't fear the influence of opposing views. In the end truth prevails, but if you can keep folks from knowing the truth by isolating them from it, it makes it much safer for your own ideas and positions.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by crazyhomie

Having said that; Why are you concerned with what people say about you, unless there is some modicum of truth to it. You don't need to defend the truth. Also, had Jesus not "fellowshipped" with sinners, you and I would not have the opportunity to be saved. The problem with that mentality is that its "exclusive" and not "inclusive" which is the basic problem with the UPC. If you really have the truth UC then why aren't you willing to let your light shine...to whoever, whenever? God loves everybody and He doesn't pick and choose who He fellowships with or who he prays for. Whoever calls on him will be saved including the drug addict or the ultracon, it doesn't matter. Whoesoever will let him drink of the water of life freely...By the way, how can you influence anyone who isn't your friend or will listen to you? Its all about relationship...

What a great post! Novel idea huh? It is like they think one light can shine as bright as a ton of lights?

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

Fear of the influence of the real truth is probably more accurate. Truth doesn't fear the influence of opposing views. In the end truth prevails, but if you can keep folks from knowing the truth by isolating them from it, it makes it much safer for your own ideas and positions.

Amen...if the slave owners could keep em ignorant, they could keep em in the field. He that the son sets free is free indeed. Spread the good news!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by crazyhomie

Having said that; Why are you concerned with what people say about you, unless there is some modicum of truth to it. You don't need to defend the truth. Also, had Jesus not "fellowshipped" with sinners, you and I would not have the opportunity to be saved. The problem with that mentality is that its "exclusive" and not "inclusive" which is the basic problem with the UPC. If you really have the truth UC then why aren't you willing to let your light shine...to whoever, whenever? God loves everybody and He doesn't pick and choose who He fellowships with or who he prays for. Whoever calls on him will be saved including the drug addict or the ultracon, it doesn't matter. Whoesoever will let him drink of the water of life freely...By the way, how can you influence anyone who isn't your friend or will listen to you? Its all about relationship...

You're probably correct in most of what you describe. However, there are many layers of complexities and different "flavors" of the UPC that can actually be surprising sometimes.

And the depth of worship found in many UPC churches hits a homerun, shaking heaven and earth often enough that a lot of people there don't really see that there's a problem in other areas of their walk. A lot of UPC churches have their sole ministry to almost exclusively be the worship service. That's all they do, is "Have church."

Once you get really wrapped up in that you find it's pretty easy to shrug off other people's problems with easy bumpsticker like metaphors.

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

See that is the thing to each group truth is relational. UC's believe truth Libs see another. The fact is that there is 1 and only truth. I think that if we can fellowship and link together in a "United Effort" then we can accomplish great things. But wasn't that the reason the PCI and PAJC joined together in the first place? I honestly feel that the Libs can be happy fellowshipping with the UC's but the UC's will not feel comfortable fellowshipping us. I was once a UC's to the higher standards, but I saw how judgemental I was and the elitist mind I lived by. I see others doing it at it stinks. But I would love to see the day for the PCI and the PAJC minds to met and fellowship and fellowship only not legislate a lifestyle.

Quite right. It is interesting to me, I'm conservative, but not a conservative. I'm liberal, but not a liberal. I moderate, but I'm not a moderate.

Some of the conservative things that I do and teach are considered mod, or lib by cons and UCs. Go figure...I just want to explore and implement the Truth, be led of the Spirit, and let love, even for those in opposition reign.

If I have the truth, if I'm led of the Spirit, and I love, then the light will shine and I am a witness.


Love is verb too.

1 Corithians 13

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

I love it.

[Book 'em Dano]

Originally Posted by crazyhomie

If there is so much truth in UPC, then why are folks so threatened by others who do not believe the same. Truthfully, most married couples don't agree on everything, some republican and democrat, but still live in the same house. Why is it that UPC pastors discourage their saints to fellowship even with others who are more liberal than they are? My brother wants to know.

This is not just the UPC. This is symptomatic of our world today. It was never this bad before. Our society is divided. Our politics are divided. Other churches are wrestling with their own forms of liberalism vs conservativism via the gay issue.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

Fear of the influence of the real truth is probably more accurate. Truth doesn't fear the influence of opposing views. In the end truth prevails, but if you can keep folks from knowing the truth by isolating them from it, it makes it much safer for your own ideas and positions.

You know that's a real problem. When I was preaching I was really into preaching. I studied many hours during the week to prepare for less than an hour in the pulpit every Sunday. After a few years I found that I represented a threat to the senior pastor and his wife. I had looked up to them for so long that it really blew me away that I threatened them.

In time I began to see that the older preacher was no longer as motivated to prepare for his messages. He had lost the desire that he once had for "book learning." My enthusiam probably only made him feel worse. In time, when even his own family was clamoring for me to preach more they simply pulled the rug out. They were complacent and satisfied with themselves.

I think that's a large part our problem in the UPC - we're satisfied that we possess "all truth" and that anything else is just going to muddy the water for us. So all you young UPC preachers out there, learn from my mistakes. Put away your studies. Put down the Bible. Pick up some tapes of some "old timers" and simply mimic what you hear. Don't try to glean anything for yourself. Your soul will die from the boredom. But you won't rock anybody's boat either.

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

I understand the "how can two walk together unless they agree" thing, but you must first look and say do we have more disagreements or agreements. Then you must look at the disagreements and see if they are worth fighting over. Most of the time they are not worth it. We can do a greater good together, but most UC's will not allow it.

There is no reason for any lib/mod to say anything about bondage. The truth is alot of people that are libs feel that alot of saints in your church are under bondage, but that is just opinion. IMO there is no need for extra biblical teaching, but I realize that some of these teachings have made a difference in ones life. But also they have torn people apart. As you I am not offended by differing view to mine though I think something UC's do are not needed. I do not try to change others minds. I think that alot of UC's and probably you too feel that if your saints fellowship with libs then your people will move the libs way and not the libs move the Cons way. Am I correct?

Allow me to ask you something. If there is a saint in your church that has followed standards for years then gets eye-opening experience and begans to follow the more lib minded way would you care? If it doesn't bother you for someone to have a different opinion than you is it ok for them to fellowship with your church still? I de feel that alot of it is a elitest mentality. You say it is not, but think of this, a lib can fellowship with a UC and no problems will arise except that the UC will refuse to fellowship with the libs. If the Libs are willing and wanting to fellowship the UC's, but the UC's do not want to fellowship the Libs tell me how this is not elitism?

Yes the disagreements are worth fighting over because I see them as a salvation issue. What saints in your church may look at as bondage is to us part and parcel of our salvation. I happen to believe that holiness is Biblical and we teach seperation from the world. I'm not at all scared of our saints becoming liberal. If fact, in the religious wasteland that we live there are several liberal churches that would love to have our people come over and be "enlightened". Our people love holiness and they love truth and these two are one and the same. Here's how I really look at it. I grew up COG and if I got back to that it's exactely that, going back. If we preach seperation from the world and we go back to "liberalism" we are doing just that. I'm not condeming you or anyone else, these are just my views, this is what I preach. I knew about bondage when I was in the world smoking and drinking. I've been called to "be ye seperate from among them", i'm the one that has been liberated with an eye-opening experience.

[Sacerdotal]

Originally Posted by crazyhomie

Amen...if the slave owners could keep em ignorant, they could keep em in the field. He that the son sets free is free indeed. Spread the good news!

Tell me you are not equating the UPC with the shameful blight of being a slave owner! If so that is the most ignorant thing I've ever read on this forum.

[Sacerdotal]

Originally Posted by Book 'em Dano

This is not just the UPC. This is symptomatic of our world today. It was never this bad before. Our society is divided. Our politics are divided. Other churches are wrestling with their own forms of liberalism vs conservativism via the gay issue.

I can agree with this.