BTW, the word rendered "rule" here is translated from the following Greek word:
NT:2233 heegeomai, heegoumai;
perfect heegeemai;1 aorist heegeesameen; (from agoo (compare Curtius, p. 688));
deponent middle voice; from Homer down;
1. to lead, i. e.a. to go before;b. to be a leader; to rule, command; to have authority over: in the N.T. so only in the present participle heegoumenos, a prince, of regal power (Ezek 43:7 for melek; Sir. 17:17), Matt 2:6;a (royal) governor, viceroy, Acts 7:10;chief, Luke 22:26 (opposed to ho diakonoon);leading as respects influence, controlling in counsel, en tisi, among any, Acts 15:22;with the genitive of the person over whom one rules, so of the overseers or leaders of Christian churches: Heb 13:7,17,24 (oikou, 2 Chron 31:13;toon patrioon, 1 Esdr. 5:65 (66), 67 (68);tees poleoos, Judg 9:51, the Alex.;a military leader, 1 Macc. 9:30; 2 Macc. 14:16;used also in Greek writings of any kind of a leader, chief, commander, Sophocles Phil. 386; often in Polybius; Diodorus 1, 4 and 72; Lucian, Alex. 44; and others);with the genitive of the thing, tou logou, the leader in speech, chief speaker, spokesman: Acts 14:12 of Mercury, who is called also tou logou heegemoon in Jamblichus' de myster., at the beginning2. (like the Latin duco) equivalent to to consider, deem, account, think: with two accusatives, one of the objects, the other of the predicate, Acts 26:2; Phil 2:3,6 (on which see harpagmos, Phil 2:2 (W., sec. 44, 3 c.)); Phil 3:7 (compare Buttmann, 59 (51); W., 274 (258)); 1 Tim 1:12; 6:1; Heb 10:29; 11:11,26; 2 Peter 1:13; 2:13; 3:9,15.tina hoos tina, 2 Thess 3:15 (compare W., sec. 65, 1 a.);tina huperekperissou, to esteem one exceedingly, 1 Thess 5:13 (peri pollou, Herodotus 2, 115;peri pleistou, Thucydides 2, 89);with the accusative of the thing followed by hotan, James 1:2;anangkaion, followed by an infinitive, 2 Cor 9:5; Phil 2:25;dikaion, followed by an infinitive, 2 Peter 1:13;followed by an accusative with an infinitive, Phil 3:8.(Compare: dieegeomai, ekeegeomai, dieegeomai, exeegeomai, proeegeomai. Synonyms: dokeoo I, heegeomai 2, nomizoo 2, oiomai:heegeomai and nomizoo denote a belief resting not on one's inner feeling or sentiment, but on the due consideration of external grounds, the weighing and comparing, of facts;dokeoo and oiomai, on the other hand, describe a subjective judgment growing out of inclination or a view of facts in their relation to us.heegeomai denotes a more deliberate and careful judgment than nomizoo;oiomai, a subjective judgment which has feeling rather than thought (dokeoo) for its ground.Compare Schmidt, chapter 17.)
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon.)
__________________ For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another! (Gal 5:13-15/ NKJV)
Overseers are not to be lords, but to be servant leaders.
Shepherding the flock, IMO, does involve a degree of rule...
__________________ For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another! (Gal 5:13-15/ NKJV)
I have consistently avoided direct questions of this sort to protect my ability to speak candidly on topics that cross the normal grain of member-minister fellowships made up of 'churchs' that have been founded or are being overseen by a guy or group of guys.
Sorry for being non-responsive.
No problem...sorry for the personal question.
I asked mainly because of your comments. It would seem to this layperson that a pastor would have a different view than you re the portion of Scripture we are citing here.
GL, I'll tell you what...I'll commit to pray about my involvement with your contributions.
and....
I will ask that you provide a table or some form of listing of what specific areas an overseer has true authority given him, by God, concering the individual member of God's own body.
Example.
If the guy who has his name as colateral on a mortgage wants authority for everything done within the asset secured by his liability --AMEN! Great. Of course he should have that. It's NOT a member of CHRIST issue, its a temporal matter that needs governers, kings, rulers, and CEO's to administer a shared/common asset.
If a guy who says he is called of God to preach or pastor, feels that has the authority to tell any other member of the body of Christ, that they should obey him as he obeys CHRIST, he has completely exceeded his REALM of authority.
In CHRIST, there is no other Kings or RULERS except the head of the Body. I am charged by scripture to know those who I labor among and to be in the book enough to know if the one's I trust as guides are living a life of ITim3 and Titus 1 and the responsibility to study is the individual saints to enable all this.
*added as edit *
subjecting ourselves, one to another is an act of choice on the part of the subject-or not a response or command from any authority other than the word of God.
__________________
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath [James 1:19]
I asked mainly because of your comments. It would seem to this layperson that a pastor would have a different view than you re the portion of Scripture we are citing here.
Just my uneducated opinion...
Barb, please revisit the guestions I asked of you a few posts back.
thanks.
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Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath [James 1:19]
I believe ONLY ONE member of the Body of Christ has the rule over any other member in the Body of Christ, the Head, the only begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ.
Denominated 'heads' are a silly man-made thing in the assembly of our spiritual fellowship in Christ.
There are countess dominions and authorities and headships in the created/temporal realm. We should obey all those RULERS.
God has not appointed rulers to bless his church, he has appointed servants. Servants who love him; bondservants.
So to answer you question directly would mean that I would have to accept your word structure as having application man-to-man in Christ. I wholehearted disagree with any man having RULE over any other man in the ministration of our roles in the Body of CHRIST.
In your way of asking...I would say NO. But you see I would be saying NO to the premise that God has appointed RULERS in addition to the HEAD of the Body --I DO NOT BELIEVE HE HAS DONE SUCH.
I believe in obeying RULERS.
What is your take on Paul's role to the churches in the NT, considering they also had pastors in each church?
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I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
Rico, you can do what you want. There isn’t anyone out there to stop you.
Doing what you want however makes you one man alone doing what you think you should and there is danger in that.
The reason why pastors look for men who are willing to submit to some kind of leadership, is they know the danger that comes with being a maverick.
Men who are approved by the brethren, tend to be more clear on doctrine, more steady in their personal lives, more likely to minister without causing damage.
Pastors are jealous about what their people hear because pastors have to deal with the fall out when some other messenger comes to tell their flock.
With no one to vouch for you, a pastor isn’t going to risk letting you near his people.
The word you hear is “cover” a man who has mentors and friends in the ministry has “cover”. That cover is there it protect him from himself in most instances. It isn’t about some preacher getting to tell others what to do, it is about some preacher protecting himself from going off the deep end.
If you were to poll, 500 pastors regardless of denomination, I would guarantee, that 90% would tell you they have known at least 1 maverick preacher, and that guy went over the edge and is no longer serving God, or worse, has taken some group into apostasy.
Rico, like I said, you can do what you want. There isn’t anyone that can stop you from starting a prison ministry or even your own church if you like. The danger is, there isn’t anyone to stop you when you go off course. EVERYONE runs the risk of running off course at some point in their ministry….EVERYONE. All the good ones know this, and work to prevent it before it happens. (Cover)
The great “tell” of a preacher in my mind, is how teachable is he?
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
I just worry about someone who isn't rooted and grounded in a church. I also worry that if you would not become a member of a particular church then how could you recommend it to someone else?
I do feel like anyone is 'called' to a certain ministry then God will open the door for him/her to minister but the calling most often comes with a confirmation from someone you know and trust to be spiritual and in tune with God's working.
A true Pastor will be right there with you on the calling and will help prepare you for it. My Pastor is such a man.
Blessings, Rhoni
I am rooted and grounded in the Church. That's what you don't seem to realize. Allegiance to a building isn't being rooted and grounded.
The confirmation of my prison ministry came a long time ago, Sister. It isn't even a question in my mind any more.
As I said, I am not against going the conventional route. I am just not so sure that that is the only way.
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