End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

[Sister Alvear]

Another person's veiw...I see the scripture talking about the home however I am open to other veiws...What About 1 Timothy 2:11-12?

"But,” some will ask, “What about Paul's admonitions in I Corinthians 14:34 and I Timothy 2:12 for women to be silent?" For the sake of space, we will look at 1 Tim. 2:11-12 which many consider to be the Bible’s clearest statement against women functioning in leadership. It says, Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. On the surface and out of context, this passage sounds quite clear in its restriction of women. But a different picture emerges when we consider four simple exegetical facts.

1 Timothy Was Written To An Individual, Not To A Church

First of all, the letter of 1 Timothy was written to an individual, not to a church. We should expect, therefore, that the things written in the letter are related to the situation of the individual, i.e. Timothy, to whom it was written. It is a “personal” letter.

1 Timothy Addresses A Personal, Local Situation in Ephesus

Secondly, vs. 3 of chpt. 1 clearly states the reason for this letter to Timothy. It is not to lay down a universal system of church order. It is to encourage and instruct him as he deals with a false teaching that is circulating among the Christians in Ephesus where he is located.

This requires rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Tim. 2:15). Paul obviously was not issuing universal edicts for all churches of every time and place. He is addressing unique issues related to Timothy and the church in Ephesus.

A Strange Greek Word

That Paul is addressing a unique situation in Ephesus is further borne out by the fact that the word “authority” in 2:12 is a translation of the Greek word authentein which is found only here in the entire New Testament. If Paul is here giving a universal edict for church order, why doesn’t he use the normal word for authority, exousia, which he and all other New Testament writers use. Why does he here use a word that neither he nor any other New Testament writer ever uses--a word that refers to someone who claims to be the author or originator of something.

The obvious answer is that Paul is here dealing with the unique situation that exists in Ephesus. If Paul had been giving a universal rule for church order in this passage, he would have used the normal New Testament word for authority.

Paul May Have Been Addressing A Particular Woman in Ephesus

Fourthly, this view is borne out by the fact that there is a change from the plural to the singular and then back to the plural in this passage. In vss. 9-10 of chpt. 2, Paul refers to “women” in the plural. But when he comes to the restrictive admonition of vss. 11-12, he changes to the singular and refers to “a woman.” Afterwards, in vs. 15, he returns again to the plural. This may indicate that, in writing this passage, Paul had a particular woman in mind who was primarily responsible for spreading the false teaching in Ephesus. Be that as it may, Paul, in this passage, is obviously addressing a unique, local situation in the city of Ephesus.

So, who says women can’t pastor? Not Jesus! Not Paul! And not the New Testament!

[Sister Alvear]

I’m reminded of what Catherine Booth, wife and co-founder of the Salvation Army with her husband, William Booth. Responding to a man who argued, “Paul said to the Corinthians it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”
“Oh yes, he did, but in the first place this is not a church, and in the second place, I am not a Corinthian; besides [she continued, looking at the man’s wife], Paul said in the same epistle that it was good for the unmarried to remain so.”.....

[rdp]

Oh my goodness - Sis. Alvear, did you just totally ignore the careful exegesis of the relevant texts I've provided?? You're still copy-pasting the same (very poor BTW) material that's already been refuted - then calling it "evidence" ??? Real "evidence" has already been provided from the actual grammar of the inspired texts - not mere copy-paste commentary.



For example, I've demonstrated over & over & over & over that in Romans 16.2, Paul says (regarding Phoebe's position in the church): "and of myself also." I am asking you for about the 5th time now - Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that Phoebe was "set over" the Apostle Paul??? Your response? Just ignore the Bible & continue to copy-paste your commentary.....Yea' - real "evidence" .


Then, as ALWAYS, you simply ignore the syntax & exegesis of the biblical texts & just keep plodding along w/ copy-paste commentary (BTW, they are very poorly written & FULL of both grammatical & theological error - as I shall demonstrate later tonight). My prediction? You'll just continue to ignore the grammatical facts of the inspired texts (which you'll be judged by someday) & continue along with your fingers stuck in your ears still copy-pasting commentary that has been refuted on a textual level over & over & over & over. Respectfully, it is simply a stubborn denial of the biblical texts (your commentary of I Tim. 2 is dreadfully off-base - & I'll prove it later tonight). Sigh.......


But I shall still demonstrate the error of the commentary later tonight that you've posted nevertheless !

[Sasha]

RDP, Sis. Alvear is sick with pneumonia. Will you be praying for her today? Will you have your church pray for her today?

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Sasha

RDP, Sis. Alvear is sick with pneumonia. Will you be praying for her today? Will you have your church pray for her today?

Even though they disagree, RDP has said numerous times that he was praying for Sis. Alvear when she has been sick.

[KeptByTheWord]

One area that RDP refuses to admit that he has inserted his own interpretation of, is regarding the word "silence". In our past discussions, he has always used the scripture in 1 Tim. 2 about a woman remaining silent. Yet, he has also said that a woman is free to sing, pray, prophesy, etc. in his church, only that she cannot stand behind the pulpit and expound on scriptures. So therefore, that is HIS interpretation of that scripture.

The word silence means the following, per Webster's dictionary...

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary
1. (n.) The state of being silent; entire absence of sound or noise; absolute stillness.
2. (n.) Forbearance from, or absence of, speech; taciturnity; muteness.
3. (n.) Secrecy; as, these things were transacted in silence.
4. (n.) The cessation of rage, agitation, or tumult; calmness; quiet; as, the elements were reduced to silence.
5. (n.) Absence of mention; oblivion.
6. (interj.) Be silent; -- used elliptically for let there be silence, or keep silence.
7. (v. t.) To compel to silence; to cause to be still; to still; to hush.
8. (v. t.) To put to rest; to quiet.
9. (v. t.) To restrain from the exercise of any function, privilege of instruction, or the like, especially from the act of preaching; as, to silence a minister of the gospel.
10. (v. t.) To cause to cease firing, as by a vigorous cannonade; as, to silence the batteries of an enemy.

Silence is the absence of sound or noise, and absolute stillness. By this definition, a woman should not make so much as a peep in a church service. Bro. RDP has still not explained how a woman must be silent, according to this definition, and yet still prophecy, sing, testify etc. (of which the woman in his church can do).

So... he has placed his OWN interpretation on this scripture, and beats everyone over the head who does not see it his way. I have not gotten a straight answer from him on this point, and won't, I'm sure. He will just post pages and pages of bible translations that serve to basically take up space, and detract from the discussion.

When RDP can explain how a woman can be silent without making a sound/noise, and remain in absolute stillness, and still prophecy, sing, testify etc., that will be exciting indeed.

In all fairness, in all of Paul's teachings, he never allows for a woman to be in authority over men, as I've said in previous posts. It just goes against biblical headship and order.

However, women do have a place in the ministry as evangelists, and spreading the good news of the gospel. Jesus called ALL (meaning all spirit filled believers) to be preachers of the gospel, to share the good news. Everyone of us should be preaching the gospel wherever we go. Spirit filled believers are ALL evangelists.

THERE IS NO DIRECTIVE GIVEN BY PAUL AS TO AN EVANGELIST IN ANY OF HIS WRITINGS. Therefore, anyone can be an evangelist/preacher. There are plenty of directives for other aspects of the ministry, but the work of an evangelist was first defined by Jesus, and Paul never added or took away from that.

The work of an evangelist/preacher is to GO PREACH THE GOSPEL, and this is given to ALL who have received the spirit.

Some of this was discussed before in this thread, but knowing how difficult it is to go through pages and pages and pages of discussion, I have posted it again for those who are interested.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Ok, so I clicked on the link you provided, and this is what it says:
anér: a man
Original Word: ἀνήρ, ἀνδρός, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: anér
Phonetic Spelling: (an'-ayr)
Short Definition: a male human being, a man
Definition: a male human being; a man, husband.

Right there in bold is the word husband. Now I know that you say that in the context that Paul couldn't possibly be talking about a husband. Well, that's your opinion. Let's look at that scripture in context again.

8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

This is my opinion too, because... no one of us can know exactly the mind of Paul as he was writing, but in looking at this verse from the context of the passage it was found in, Paul is addressing the husband/wife issue here, and which is why the word HUSBAND could certainly be used here (using your source as the reference for husband), as he mentions that the woman (wife) would be saved in childbearing. A single woman, or widow is not childbearing, a wife would be the only one childbearing. So, the context IS husband/wife.

Now, I realize that with all your study of Greek, that it is possible that "much learning hath made you mad" (really, I believe you are sincere, and don't hold that against you). However, you have your opinion about the verse, which is fine. We have ours. Opinions may never meet. But, you continue to choose to acknowledge the fact that Paul taught a woman can prophesy in the church, but get hung up on the "remain silent in church", but you have NEVER SAID how that can be possible.

I have stated that it is possible when a wife is in submission to her husband, that being under his authority, if she has been given a word from the Lord, she can speak.

You are looking at the forest without seeing the trees. Jesus talked ALONE to the Samaritan woman. Why would he do that? How awful, for a MAN to be ALONE with a woman. And then, after He talked to her ALONE, what did she do?

Let's read the verse and see what she did:

John 4
27 And upon this came his disciples, and marvelled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why talkest thou with her?
28 The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,
29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?
30 Then they went out of the city, and came unto him.
39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

You see, Jesus talked with the Samaritan lady, alone, while his disciples were off buying food. Then, the Samaritan women, went and told the MEN to come and see a man who told me all the things I ever did.

And you know what... many of the Samaritans of that city believed for the saying of the woman.

She was the FIRST WOMAN EVANGELIST Jesus sent... and a very effective one at that.

God Bless you Bro. RDP... but I feel sorry for you, that you would never accept a woman who has been sent by God to preach the gospel. If this woman had listened to the disciples, who were aghast that Jesus would talk to this woman alone, none of those Samaritans would have heard the word of God.

To obey GOD is better than to obey the traditions of men.

BUMP

This is for those who may have missed it

[Sister Alvear]

That he cannot explain....yes the doctors say I am sick but for the moment am able to keep going and I do appreciate everyone's prayers.

[Sister Alvear]

and I did say I was going to paste.....nothing wrong with that...
NO WHERE in the BIBLE does it say a woman cannot preach...but it does say, GO ye into all the world and preach....and it dows say those that were scattered abroad went everywhere preaching. ....

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

and I did say I was going to paste.....nothing wrong with that...
NO WHERE in the BIBLE does it say a woman cannot preach...but it does say, GO ye into all the world and preach....and it dows say those that were scattered abroad went everywhere preaching. ....

Right. No definitions regarding the ministry of evangelist/preacher given by Paul. None. Jesus first defined it. It is a ministry given to ALL, men and women. Yes, in Acts 8 ... much as RDP will not admit ... that verse does include both men and women preaching. Men and women went to prison, and men and women went about preaching.