Rejoicing In the Sabbath:

[johnny44]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Sabbath starts Friday at sundown, sorry. And

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Seems to reiterate that we will observe a future Sabbath, like Isaiah, but that the more important thing is the more important thing?

Wow now the Sabbath is all night long on Friday and all day long Saturday and all night long Saturday.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

That is what Paul was dealing with. We can't please God in any way other than BEING IN Christ.



The point we're making in essence is we CANNOT keep the OLD COVENANT simultaneously with the NEW COVENANT. It's either one or the other.

What's your take on Col 2:16-17

I don't agree... while we love our children because they are our children and we will love them even if they are unattractive, not very bright, etc. so will the Father love us. But there are many things that our children can do to make us smile. One of the best is when they do the things we have taught them... Not because they could not choose to do otherwise or because they fear us but because they love and respect us and desire for us to be pleased. It's a totally different thing. I believe that we can indeed make God smile.

There were many festivals and sabbaths. They had nothing to do with the Sabbath that is part of creation's order and was repeated in the timeless commandments, which is the 7th day Sabbath.

Do you then propose that we may now murder, covet, bare false witness, commit adultery? No because these things were carried into the new covenant... as was the Sabbath, kept by Jesus Christ, all the 12 apostles, Paul and every other Christian for over 300 years. It is a simple as understanding baptism by immersion... It just was not done any other way even if not expounded on. Those non-Jews who were converted certainly did not follow every ceremonial detail of sabbath keeping but they did indeed have a day hallowed by God for rest and reflection and that day was the weeks last.

Do you still refer to the 10 commandments or do you now call them the 'Nine Commandments'? And do they have any value to you at all?

What is your take on John 14:15?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

I like this, it's sweet, it has appeal... kind of like the story of the candy cane that goes around in emails at Christmas... But just like the candy cane story, it's not true. What is true is exactly what Aquila has explained at length. That the day of worship was changed at the councils... at the same time that the creeds were established and trinity was adopted. Those councils were not about keeping things as the apostles did or about keeping them the way God ordained them... They were about how to make Christianity benefit the current government and it leaders current religious traditons. It was a rotten work as has been recognized in some of the great works today such as D. Bernard's 'History of the Christian Church'.

I wish that what you have said here were true Mr Blume, it would uncomplicate my life some... but is simply is not. sorry.

What allegedly changed at the councils was bogus. Nothing changed the fact that the early church broke bread the first day of the week, not because the day was holy. That is a strawman argument against not keeping sabbath though. IOW, not every one who goes to church on sunday does it because of the nutty decision the catholics made to change the sabbath. They never had anything right to begin with.

So, sorry, I stand by my words.

What would make your life easier is realizing that Gal 4:9-11 teaches the church is not intended to keep holy days, months and years from previous covenants. The truth will make you free! If sabbath keeping is making it hard as though something else would make it easier, that should awaken you to something being offkey with sabbath keeping. And what REALLY should make you free is knowing that the sabbath day was a shadow of resting in Christ forever, and that means we keep the sabbath because we keep the BODY and not there mere shadow.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by johnny44

Wow now the Sabbath is all night long on Friday and all day long Saturday and all night long Saturday.

Sabbath ends at sundown on Saturday so Houston can still get out to the bars to party.

[Truthseeker]

One point I read about church being on saturday was giving Goid first part of weekend then doing weekend activities.interesting point.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

Galatians 4:10-11 "Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."

It does not say that.Let us just go back a couple of verses to avoid the 'cherry picker' effect.

I went back to the end of chapter three to arrive at this conclusion!

Gal 4:6-12

"Because you are his children, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts. He is the Holy Spirit. By his power we call God "[Abba.]" Abba means Father.

So you aren't slaves any longer. You are God's children. Because you are his children, he gives you what he promised to give his people.

This is speaking to SAVED GENTILES in contrast to Jews. The JEWS were the HEIRS mentioned in verse 1 of ch. 4. Paul was stating in chapter 3 that the JEWS were under law until Christ came. That is why Paul used the terms US and WE. He was speaking solely of Jews. And then after speaking more of JEWS in the first few verses, using US and WE, he then switches to speak to the GENTILES in the church as YOU. The gentiles were the servants in contrast to the Jews who were like HEIRS. But the heirs (Jews) were not different in practical issues than the servants (Gentiles) while the heir was under tutorship of Law.

Then he said the heir "graduated" from tutors when Christ came, and the Gentiles were adopted into the family to be heirs as well!

So then Paul asks why the Gentiles would leave one form of bondage under idols to the bondage of the elements of the world (elementary school of law's tutorship), when the Jews whom law was over are not even under law now.

THAT is the context.

At one time you didn't know God. You were slaves to gods that are really not gods at all.

Speaking to gentiles. Right.

But now you know God. Even better, God knows you. So why are you turning back to those weak and worthless beliefs? Do you want to be slaves to them all over again?

No, he did not say that. He said they were going from bondage to IDOLS and false gods into the OTHER bondage the Jews experienced under law to DAYS AND MOTHS AND YEARS. He is talking about holy days and months and years from previous covenants for Israel.

You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I am afraid for you. I am afraid that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you."

Or rephrased: Before you knew the One True Living God you worshiped false Gods by observing special days and months and years. Do not become enslaved to false gods again now that you have been adopted as God's children by doing that again.

No, that is not what he said. He said the JEWS were the HEIRS who were BOUND TO ELEMENTS OF THE WORLD.

Galatians 4:1-5 KJV Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; (2) But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. (3) Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: (4) But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, (5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

This is speaking about JEWS UNDER LAW. Notice the word BONDAGE. We know this is bondage to days and months and years of Israelite holy times because verse 5 says it is about redeeming those under law.

Verse 6 switches from US and WE, speaking of Jews, to YOU and YE in speaking of gentiles. They left bondage alright, but not the same bondage of verse 3 which was ELEMENTARY school of law (elements of the world). But they left the bondage of idols and went into the Israelite bondage of law. That is why Gal 5 tells them to not go under the yoke of bondage, and mentions circumcision, because these Gentile believers were using law-keeping and holy days and circumcision, when Paul said that was only the heri's schoolmaster and tutor UNTIL CHRIST CAME.

We cannot disconnect Gal 3 from the context of Gal 4 like you inadvertently did.

Paul himself observed Sabbath and would have looked kind of silly if this were about the fourth commandment...

No he did not. He only did it to reach Jews on the synagogues and to win those under law. Show me where he kept sabbath because God expected him to. It's not there.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

One point I read about church being on saturday was giving Goid first part of weekend then doing weekend activities.interesting point.

But God goes by the WEEK, so the sabbath is the last part of the week. Aside from that, there is no scripture to support honouring God with the first part of the weekend. So give God the first part of the WEEK,the first day, and then take the rest for yourself. lol

[johnny44]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

Sabbath ends at sundown on Saturday so Houston can still get out to the bars to party.

I thought I read where someone wrote about Paul preaching all night till Sunday morning was still the SAbbaTH.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Lets keep this clear, I have never argued for keeping the Law of Moses, only for keeping the Law of God which was embeded in the Ten Commandments. Huge difference. and I will never stop arguing for the Law of God, which are the Ten Commandments.

Paul was referring to the Law of God (as you call it) in Rom 7. How do you explain the fact that Paul said we're delivered from the Law and we're DEAD to the Law in Rom 7.

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

The point I am making about the Sabbath is that it existed before there was even the Ten Commanments, so if anyone wants to get rid of the Sabbath because they do not believe the Ten commandments are enforcable, they still have to deal with the Sabbath which existed before them.

Where in the bible did God say we should keep the sabbath before 10 commandments?

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Physical circumcision was debated by the early church and was excluded by the church in Jerusalem, so it is not longer binding. The Sabbath was never debated by the early church, so it still stands. For no record of it being abrogated or changed is ever found in the scriptures.

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Paul kept the Sabbath, so no you can not use the writtings of Paul to do away with the Sabbath. Paul would not do something and then contradict himself in his letters. Paul was consistent in his actions and theology. No one can use Paul's writing to contradict his actual actions.

Scripture(s) for Paul keeping the Sabbath?

Why would Paul say this to the gentiles if they were to observe the Sabbath?
Col 2
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

I don't agree... while we love our children because they are our children and we will love them even if they are unattractive, not very bright, etc. so will the Father love us. But there are many things that our children can do to make us smile. One of the best is when they do the things we have taught them... Not because they could not choose to do otherwise or because they fear us but because they love and respect us and desire for us to be pleased. It's a totally different thing. I believe that we can indeed make God smile.

OK.

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

There were many festivals and sabbaths. They had nothing to do with the Sabbath that is part of creation's order and was repeated in the timeless commandments, which is the 7th day Sabbath.

That is an ASSUMPTION you're reading into the text. Paul said Sabbath dayS. He did not exclude the one special Sabbath. The 7th Sabbath day is STILL a Sabbath day.

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

Do you then propose that we may now murder, covet, bare false witness, commit adultery?

The sins you mentioned are works of the flesh. As believers, we are to be led by the Spirit, so we don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh. It's not keeping the 10 commandments per se. It's about walking in the Spirit.

Gal 5
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

If we go by the 10 commandments to obey God, then DRUNKENNESS would be okay.

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

No because these things were carried into the new covenant... as was the Sabbath, kept by Jesus Christ, all the 12 apostles, Paul and every other Christian for over 300 years. It is a simple as understanding baptism by immersion... It just was not done any other way even if not expounded on. Those non-Jews who were converted certainly did not follow every ceremonial detail of sabbath keeping but they did indeed have a day hallowed by God for rest and reflection and that day was the weeks last.

The 10 commandments were NOT carried over INTO the new covenant.

Gal 4
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

The 10 commandments referred to by Paul here LEADS to BONDAGE. It did not carry over into the new covenant.

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

Do you still refer to the 10 commandments or do you now call them the 'Nine Commandments'? And do they have any value to you at all?

How can I observe something I'm DEAD unto?

Rom 8:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God

The 10 commandments are not a moral law for me. It's about walking in the Spirit and not fulfilling the lust of the flesh.
Again, if I were to observe the 10 commandments, I would be getting drunk.
However, drunkenness is a desire of the flesh, so I do not indulge.

The Law shows me my SIN before I came to Christ. After I came to Christ, I now need to walk in the Spirit, not keep the Law.

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

What is your take on John 14:15?

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1 John 3
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.