End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

[n david]

Originally Posted by Dordrecht

Is it an insult when one says the truth?

It's used as a derogatory and insulting term. Yes, it's still an insult regardless if she thinks it's true or not.

[Dordrecht]

Originally Posted by n david

It's used as a derogatory and insulting term. Yes, it's still an insult regardless if she thinks it's true or not.

Well, I guess that's your opinion.
I disagree.

When one acts like one, one is one.
Very plain and simple.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Roxanne Murphy

And my evaluation of the continued repeat responses of our self anointed and self appointed Greek scholar stands true: he has a doctrine that is very important to him, has searched out a scripture or two that might be made to support that doctrine to the exclusion of what the rest of scripture says about the subject (through the fallacy that some scriptures are more authoritative than others, my Bible tells me all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and that no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation), and now he continuously insists that all other scripture be forced to agree with this doctrine or else it must be argued away, often with personal slurs against those who cannot see the scriptures through his filter.
I will say that I believe this is the first time I have been called an ultra liberal feminist, and this is actually humorous for anybody who knows me can testify that I am no such individual.
Thank you for the interaction, my brother Pharisee. It makes me thankful once again for God's amazing grace and mercy to me that He saw fit to shine the light of truth into my world of man made traditions, the 'holiness' culture in which I was raised.
So you just keep on enslaving, er, I mean, 'encouraging' the folks still living under the yoke of the commandments of men: it is your livelihood and a source of great self satisfaction for you. I will be busy doing my part to fulfill the true purpose of the church, as found in Matthew 28:18-20.

I don't know him personally, but I'll bet those who do know RDP personally would likely say he's no such "Pharisee."

[shazeep]

well, but both intentions and opinions are involved; and perceptions. Even an lol might be taken as laughing at someone, i guess.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Dordrecht

But teaching and preaching should be fine.
Hmm…that makes them a pastor too….ah well..

Not true.

Originally Posted by Dordrecht

So…anyone being saved under the ministry of a female is not saved because female preachers is not biblical. If not biblical it must be from the enemy…

I may have missed it...is that what RDP said?

[Dordrecht]

Well if females are not suppose to be doing what our sister is doing it seems to indicate she is out of the will of God. (According to our male preacher on this thread.) And out of the will of God cannot be a blessing, can it?

[KeptByTheWord]

RDP,

1. Please learn how to use the quote button. It is right above where you type in the word box. Highlight the text you are responding to, and click the little yellow quote button, and it will place the text in quote for you. This would make it much easier to respond to your thoughts, and keep the discussion more easier to follow.

2. I have read carefully your posting of Daniel Wallace's commentary on the "aner" and "guder".

Gune and aner are words which mean 'adult female' and 'adult male' in their unmarked meanings. Only if there are sufficient contextual clues that husband and wife are in view do the words mean 'wife' and 'husband.' The definite article or 'idios' (one's own) or a possessive pronoun is required to show that husband and wife are in the text. None of these things occur in 1 Tim 2. The article occurs in 1 Cor 11, but only because it is syntactically required by the construction. Both passages are clearly talking about the Christian community in worship, which would of course involve single adults and married couples. Take a look at other passages that are clearly speaking about husband and wife--e.g., Eph 5, 1 Peter 3--and you'll see that they use these signals to note that husband and wife are in view.

Ok, I get that Dr. Wallace does not think the passage is talking about a husband/wife relationship. He is just one intellectual with an opinion. He is using his human reasoning and knowledge to try to understand what Paul was talking about. I understand that is his intellectual opinion. There are MANY opinions out there. I respect his opinion, and yours too, but they remain opinions. No one will ever know for sure exactly what Paul meant, because of the language culture at that time that we never will truly understand. It remains that all these things are one's opinion.

My thought is this, (and this is my opinion, and I know you don't agree, and that is fine), that Paul was addressing the husband/wife relationship, because he also later mentioned childbearing, just a verse or two down.

The reason (my opinion) that Paul is speaking of the husband/wife relationship, is because he is teaching a woman to remain under her husband's authority in the church, and not undermine it in any way.

In this way, a woman could speak in the church without undermining her husband's authority. I do believe you are right that a woman should not expound, teach, or in any way take authority over a man in a setting of believers gathering together. However, she is free to speak, pray, prophesy, worship, sing, teach other women/children, and testify to edify the church.

This would clarify Paul's statements (3 in fact in the NT) about a woman remaining in silence in church. Her silence would be necessary when her husband was speaking/preaching etc.

You still have not directly answered the contradiction of Paul's teaching of a woman remaining silent, and yet, still being able to pray/prophesy in the church. If you are silent, no language can come forth, right? This interpretation contradicts itself. You still have not said how exactly this can be.

How can you be silent, without language, and yet still be able to prophesy? You didn't answer this, and will not. There is no answer for this (with your interpretation) unless you expect a woman to use sign language when she is prophesying, instead of speaking out loud. But you have said that women in your church are free to speak/pray/sing/prophesy/testify, yet you have not said how they can do those things, and remain silent.

Why? Because, there is no answer to that. Was Paul contradicting himself in these passages? No. I don't believe he was. He was addressing two different situations. It is obvious that a woman can't remain SILENT in the church, and be used in the gifts of the spirit within a body of believers.

So the interpretation of the word silent becomes the center of attention here. What exactly did Paul mean by a woman keeping silent?

(My opinion) Paul was using this passage to teach women to be silent if men/husbands were teaching/preaching, and not to interrupt or use silly language to interrupt what he/they were saying, and not to undermine their authority. He was speaking to the women to not, in any way, undermine their husbands or other men in the church setting.

I have said before, that you are right in that there is no place in the NT where we see a woman standing before a group of men, and teaching the men from the scriptures. That is not there, and you are right, it can't be found. Paul never allowed for a woman to have a position of authority over men.

However, if a woman is sharing the gospel to those who are hungry, alongside her husband, with his support, and working together as a team, much as Priscilla and Aquila, this is not out of order. We see many, many women who were helpers in the NT, who never sought their own authority, but still were valuable workers/preachers/evangelists.

Thus it remains, that a woman would remain silent when her husband, or other man was speaking, and not seek to interrupt, or undermine their words. However, in the right time, place, and setting, a woman would be free to exercise the gifts of the spirit, keeping all things decent and in order, as Paul taught.

This is simply my understanding, RDP... and I guess yours is different. Regardless though we may never agree... doesn't matter. I know that you have put many hours into studying Greek and Hebrew, that is obvious. But I don't believe the Lord expects every believer to have a complete grasp of Hebrew/Greek to understand the simplicity of the words we have written in the Bible. It is great to have a better understanding, but in getting that understanding, don't become vain, and lifted up in that, because it will be a downfall too. A humble spirit goes much farther with the Lord, than a proud and haughty one. Keeping a humble spirit is what we should all strive for.

I pray that we can continue this discussion in a kind way, and keep slurs, insults, and demeaning talk out of the way. This would be pleasing to the Lord, I believe.

[KeptByTheWord]

And, to continue this discussion, I would like to ask why Paul did not detail qualifications for those in the five-fold ministry? If you could, provide the complete list of NT scriptures that detail qualifications for the five-fold ministry... which would be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.

Ephesians 4:11-13
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

We are quite aware of the detailed list of of qualifications given for: bishops, deacons, and elders. Those positions being quite obviously positions of authority in church government, and most will agree that it would have to be a man fulfilling those roles.

However, to my knowledge, there are no list of qualifications given by Paul for those in the five-fold ministry, like those given for bishop/elder/deacon.

I believe this is why: (my opinion) Church government is meant for the shoulders of men to handle.

However, in edifying the church through the gifts of the spirit, and the five-fold ministry, which is also for edification of the church body, then there are no qualifications listed, except that if the Lord has called, and given you this ministry/talent/gift, that you are to use it for the edifying of the body.

Therefore, the five-fold ministry could include women, because there are no qualifications listed by Paul, and it remains an open door, so to speak. (Of course, all have their opinions on this.)

Therefore, if you know the Lord has called you, like Sis. Alvear has testified of her calling, then you would be in disobedience to the spirit of Christ to not follow. If the Lord opens the doors, and makes a way, and there is fruit from the labor, then who are we to judge this? Let each one be fully persuaded in his own mind, and not cast stones at those upon whom have produced great fruit in the spirit because they have answered the call from Jesus on their life.

1 Cor. 12:26-31
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Paul was not talking here about church government (although he mentioned it as a part of the church members) but he was addressing edification of the church body through ministry, and he included part of the five-fold ministry, as well as other gifts/ministries all lumped together in the same passage.

This would seem to correlate that the five-fold ministry, gifts of the spirit, and other ministries, are not part of church government, but are for the edification of the body, of which any believer man/woman could be used to edify the church.

Bishops/elders/deacons would fall under the category of church government, and the qualifications listed by Paul seem to be very clear that men would occupy these positions.

[Sister Alvear]

Psalms 68:11

Psalms 68:11 Who Proclaimed the Word?

Perhaps many will remember the great chorus from handel’s messiah based on this psalm. The loud acclamation rings out: “The Lord gave the Word! Great was the company of the preachers.” What may not be so obvious is that this is a hard saying for those who believe all of the Scripture restricts women from preaching. Two major issues have been associated with this text: (1) What was the owed that was announced? And (2) Were the announcers women?
The first problem is the less difficult one. “The word” (‘omer) in this context hardly means mere news of the victory that had just been won. It is a divine word, either a promise (Ps 77:8) or a command with accompanying divine power (Hab 3:9), or else it is the word of God that is likened elsewhere to mighty thunder or a trumpet blast (Ps 68:33, Is 30:30; Zech 9:14).
The older commentators found in this word a reference to gospel preaching, probably because they linked this text directly with Isaiah 40:9. That meaning fits well the Isaiah context, but no direct reference to preaching the good news or gospel appears in this context.
It would be too reductionistic, however to limit this word, as many unfortunately do, to a watchword in war. Now it is true that women were leader of the songs of victory, and the feminine gender is used for announcers. It will be remembered that when Israel defeated Pharaoh, Deborah and Barak overthrew Sisera, Jephthah routed the Ammonites and David beat Goliath, the women went forth with a song of victory.
But a song of victory from God does not appear to cover all that this psalm talk about. It is used of the word of promise as well, and this is what opens this text up for a larger sphere of reference. Therefore, everything included in that word of promise was being communicated to a great host who would announce that word.
As mentioned before, the announcers of the good news (ham bass rot) appear to be women, for the Hebrew participle is in the feminine plural form. God placed his word in the mouths of his announcers; the word of promise and power in the face of a hostile world. As such, this word is very close to that of Isaiah 40:9 and especially Joel 2:28-29. These heralders comprised a great host of individuals. Surely this foreshadows what God would do at Pentecost and what he has since done all over the world through the great missionary force, which has included so many women.
Yes this was copied and pasted)

Just got in from the eye doctor really had a better report than last time...thanks for those that have prayed...

[Sister Alvear]

and no I am not putting women preachers beside Paul in doing what he was called to do I am only saying he had women with him ministering the word...No greater missionary ever lived other that Paul...If I have come across that way I did not mean it like that....not at all....sorry ...sometimes our writings sound so different that what we would express personally. If I sounded in any way that I think some woman or man for that matter was greater than Paul I am sorry I did not mean it that way at all. I repeat: I think women worked right along with Paul but I do not think they were greater than him or even over him for that matter...

If you will read what I personally have written you will read that I have always said, :I never heard the Lord call me to preach, He called me to be a missionary...." Whatever that may mean to you....I have never been ordained and do not plan to be....God's calling is enough for me...I am no threat to anyone. I grew up under Brother and Sister AO Holmes and mother Holmes is still alive today...a queen of women preachers...I deeply love her...Went to church under Brother and Sister Bryan Taylor and came to the mission field in 1968 with both the Holmes blessings and the Taylor's blessings...