FEAR FACTOR: Pentecostal/Apostolic Style

[Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by StMark

Of course I know he does not advocate someone such as WB. I was not connecting MOW to anyone like that. But Mow was not clear on what he meant by "new revelation" and I pointed out that during the history of modern Pentecost, there have been many, perhaps hundreds who have arisen and declared a new revelation or fresh word from the Lord for the existing time. How do you know it's really from God?? Branham was able to perform unbelieveable miracles and had crowds of 20,000-30,000 and was surpassing traditional pentecostals hands down at that time. I could see why people in his era who were tired of the grind of just going to church and looking for something new and fresh could fall for that not knowing that in the end, it would prove to be false

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

Uh Oh, I hope we don't start agreeing all the time. I don't believe in new "revelations" but I do believe in new revival. There is nothing new under the sun and when people start talking about some new thing I am very cautious.

MOW, substitute revival or passion with revelation and I agree almost 100%.

Mark, I think what delta is saying here what help what MOW said, easier to understand.

[Scott Hutchinson]

What we all need to do is return back to seeking God and return back to giving the word of God it's proper place of authority in our lives.
We must know what we believe and why we believe it.
We believe doctrine because of what the word says rightly divided and not just what an org. or what a preacher says because man can be mistaken but we must be sure we are following the rightly dividing scripture.

[Elizabeth]

Ok Mow where did you go??? We got your thread going but you abandoned us!!

[Scott Hutchinson]

When we get to a place where we think men or orgs. and God uses men and women and orgs. but when we think orgs.and ministers are infallible we are no better off than the Catholics.

We need the ministry we need Spiritual authority that is God ordained,but the ministry does not take the place of Jesus.

[Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

When we get to a place where we think men or orgs. and God uses men and women and orgs. but when we think orgs.and ministers are infallible we are no better off than the Catholics.

We need the ministry we need Spiritual authority that is God ordained,but the ministry does not take the place of Jesus.

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

I've studied church history for many years. I'm not a scholar, simply a student, which doesn't make me an expert in the area. However, from my observation of the current trend in "apostolica" and even classical pentecostalism, I think the "fear factor" is in play all too importantly.

In church history, there has always been a trend when God moves or pours out His Spirit or Truth. It goes like this:

God pours out truth upon people(s) hearts and minds. They are refreshed, excited, on fire! They find others who have received the same "revelation." They unite around their common bond, which was the "revelation." Since it was from God, it propels them forward and allows life to be in the group. Conversions take place. Growth happens. The "revelation" becomes the "trademark" of the group. Soon, the group solidifies and becomes a loose knit organization. Growth continues until the group becomes formal organization. It is no long loose knit, it is close knit.

Much energy and teaching revolves around the "revelation" and much energy is spent in protecting, codifying and institutionalizing the "revelation." However, God is not finished. So..........

God brings more revelation and the group is so busy protecting the last "revelation" that they do not accept the additional revelation that God wanted to build on the "last" one.

A few hungry people receive the additional "revelation" and unfortunately are labeled heretics by the established group. Those in the group who have embraced the additional "revelation" are ostracized and retain the heretic label. Those folks leave the group, while retaining the previous "revelation" and rejoicing over the new revelation/truth which brings new life, excitement, conversions etc.

This process repeats itself over and over and over and is the reason why there are so many splits not only in Christendom, but in Pentecostalism and Apostolica.

The FEAR FACTOR comes into play because the FEAR is that they will lose the former truth etc, and become compromisers.

Let me quote from an excellent old book entitled: The Church's Debt to Heretics, Rufus M. Jones. 1924 pg 12.

"When does the term "heretic" rightly apply? When does a man cease to be counted safe and become a heretical adventurer? Not, of course, until certain truths have been accepted as sacred and have won a group of adherents who believe them to be both true and essential to life and salvation."


There is really only one thing which frightens me, and that is that I miss what God is doing because I am so caught up in what I think I'm doing for Him.

Took me a while to find this, I think this quote by the esteemed Wolfgang Simson will contribute to your thoughts here,

Six easy steps to convert a blessing into a curse

Let us slip into the devils shoes for a few seconds: is ”copyist” not a perfect trap? For most churches, everything starts so wonderful.

1. Someone experiences God’s blessing because he has been obedient to His word and spirit.

2. Someone else tells the story and it appears as a testimony;

3. The third one creates a model out of this experience,

4. Which then is copied and cloned by a fourth one?

5. A fifth one finally suggests:”lets create an institution around this new model!”, and goes on to start franchises all over the world; and the

6. Sixth one forms all this into a new law, which judges everyone who chooses to do things different.

I call this”the six sure and easy steps to transform a blessing into a curse.”

[Cindy]

Jesus ain't the next new thing. He is what He is, and the Holy Ghost leads us in all truth. He does not change, we strive to be like Him, not like men. His Word teaches us and we do not need new doctrines or revelations. He has already been revealed to us.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

I agree Bro. Scott. I think one of the reasons Pentecostalism has so much confusion is because folks constantly want new revelations and don't search out the truth that is already available through Jesus Christ and his word.

This could be a new "revelation" !! Me and you agreeing !!

Just to turn it back around and go back to where MOW is , he may have the right word after all. If we believe in "maturing in the spirit" then on a personal level we could very well recieve "revelations".

This is so true, people often look other places or to new "revelations" to try and find a new experience or to awaken the spirit they have unknowingly put to sleep themselves when they should be searching for that revelation within the Word and within their own Spiritual walk with Jesus Christ.

The problem is when one recieves a personal "revelation" and has the gumption to go out on his own and start an org. I believe it is Jehovah's, Islam, that I know of off hand were both started by a single individual who simply did not like what the preacher was preaching.

[scotty]

This is so cool ! I started getting material together this morniing for a short study lesson I am doing on my show tonight titled "New Years Revelations". This thread is turning out to take the same path, am getting some good notes to add to my own.

If anyone wants me to give them credit let me know now.

[ManOfWord]

Sorry, just got back from doing "pastor" stuff. I think revelation is the correct word. A revelation is something revealed. Not something "new." Something that is IN the word of God. Remember, I have only dealt with a concept here and have not filled in the "lines." I opened up the idea for discussion and, so far, it has gone well. I personally, have been in MANY different pentecostal circles. I have been exposed to MANY different views, doctrines, revelations etc. The bible instructs us to TRY the spirits whether they are of God or not.

William Branham, I think, started out on good footing then went off when he began to declare that he was the 7th angel to the 7th church age.

T.F. Tenney used to quote the phrase that "Some folks don't think it's "smoke" unless it comes out of their stack!" I think that fits.

Even though I have experience in many different pentecostal circles, I don't buy into everything that is taught there. Some of it is just wackiness and weird. It really doesn't take a rocket scientist to know truth from error. However, the AOG and the UPCI both need to be careful in this area. It is easy to label someone/something not of God simply because it doesn't happen in your midst. That is my main point. The specifics are not the issue here, from me, at least. The issue is the principle that history bears out over and over and over.