NotOf, all I'm saying is exactly that (this is your opinion and those are your experiences). It is reckless in my opinion to project that onto everybody that you see and to assume that their church's experiences are like yours. That is my point. I don't know anything about your old church so if you say it was manufactured...I will not argue with you, but it is very presumptive to then say that everywhere in the world must have been like that.
I am a musician and I am at a church that has times of worship like this. I am also a minister (interpretation: music is not the only thing important to me). I will absolutely not allow our musicians to fabricate or work up anything like this. Our church does not stop when the music stops...neither do they start when the music starts...there are times of spontaneous worship like this that break out after we have been praising God for a while.
Most often we eventually stop the music in an attempt to "get the service back", but they very often start up again without the music. If I ever felt that the music was manufacturing something that did not exist or was improper, I would absolutely do something about it.
As I have stated earlier, in our church this most often leads to a place of worship once it all settles down. The music slows and people are worshipping, praying, weeping, or whatever all over the sanctuary.
As the music director, I have never allowed the fast stuff to go on so long that it cuts out the rest of the service, but many times we have allowed that place of worship that we reached to take over the service. Families come to the altar, I see people praying and weeping together, I see couples who I know are having problems praying together, visitors get prayed through to the Holy Ghost...so I don't regret those times at all.
I'm not talking about their church experience or mine. I'm talking about the strategy of using music to get people worked up. I don't like it. I guess that's just what it comes down to. I think it's flesh. But if others think that it's spiritual, so be it.
I just think the written out fake tongues, "sha ma hah" or whatever it was at the beginning, is indicative of the flippant attitude of it all. Like I've said, I'm not a tongue-talker but that's SO disrespectful and reminds me of the Corinthian church and what they were doing with communion. I don't think it's decent and I don't think it's in order.
I also understand I'm touching a pentecostal sacred cow here so I don't expect to get a standing ovation for this.
I'm not talking about their church experience or mine. I'm talking about the strategy of using music to get people worked up. I don't like it. I guess that's just what it comes down to. I think it's flesh. But if others think that it's spiritual, so be it.
I just think the written out fake tongues, "sha ma hah" or whatever it was at the beginning, is indicative of the flippant attitude of it all. Like I've said, I'm not a tongue-talker but that's SO disrespectful and reminds me of the Corinthian church and what they were doing with communion. I don't think it's decent and I don't think it's in order.
I also understand I'm touching a pentecostal sacred cow here so I don't expect to get a standing ovation for this.
Notof...all I'm saying is that it is not always a situation where music strategically gets people worked up. Some churches are worshipping churches and the people will worship no matter what. That being said, however, the music is a very important part of the worship and that is Biblical as well.
I'm just saying that you cannot use your experiences to say that wherever and whenever you see people worshipping like this, it is not spiritual and music manufactured it. I can't speak for every church, but I do know many churches where this is not the case.
I'm not trying to speak for all of Pentecost or about your old church.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
I'm not talking about their church experience or mine. I'm talking about the strategy of using music to get people worked up. I don't like it. I guess that's just what it comes down to. I think it's flesh. But if others think that it's spiritual, so be it.
I just think the written out fake tongues, "sha ma hah" or whatever it was at the beginning, is indicative of the flippant attitude of it all. Like I've said, I'm not a tongue-talker but that's SO disrespectful and reminds me of the Corinthian church and what they were doing with communion. I don't think it's decent and I don't think it's in order.
I also understand I'm touching a pentecostal sacred cow here so I don't expect to get a standing ovation for this.
I am Pentecostal and I agree with you sentiments in this particular post.
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
Notof...all I'm saying is that it is not always a situation where music strategically gets people worked up. Some churches are worshipping churches and the people will worship no matter what. That being said, however, the music is a very important part of the worship and that is Biblical as well.
I'm just saying that you cannot use your experiences to say that wherever and whenever you see people worshipping like this, it is not spiritual and music manufactured it. I can't speak for every church, but I do know many churches where this is not the case.
I'm not trying to speak for all of Pentecost or about your old church.
I suppose I would respectfully disagree with the above bolded. I think it's worked up. I do. I mean no disrespect, but I've never seen music like this happen without people going crazy. I've never seen music like this played and have people standing around.
I'm not totally condemning it. If it's what people want to do and have fun, I'm all for it. If it makes people feel good, no prob. But like Delta said, to call it a "move of God" or whatever is....for me....unrealistic. And I think to claim it's beyond a person's control is also unrealistic.
Last edited by notofworks; 10-21-2009 at 09:27 PM.
I suppose I would respectfully disagree with the above bolded. I think it's worked up. I do. I mean no disrespect, but I've seen music like this happen without people going crazy. I've never seen music like this played and have people standing around.
I'm not totally condemning it. If it's what people want to do and have fun, I'm all for it. If it makes people feel good, no prob. But like Delta said, to call it a "move of God" or whatever is....for me....unrealistic. And I think to claim it's beyond a person's control is also unrealistic.
Notof, I guess there's not much you can say when one feels like they know everything and that their experiences and what they've seen is somehow universal. So I guess there's not much more to say than that your experiences and your views do not necessarily a universal fact make. I attend a church that worships in a variety of ways including some of what many would call demonstrative or exhuberant. However, I am also thankful that we are a church that is spiritual enough, enlightened enough, and responsible enough to not manufacture it, push for it, or do it for "fun".
God Bless,
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
I'm not talking about their church experience or mine. I'm talking about the strategy of using music to get people worked up. I don't like it. I guess that's just what it comes down to. I think it's flesh. But if others think that it's spiritual, so be it.
I just think the written out fake tongues, "sha ma hah" or whatever it was at the beginning, is indicative of the flippant attitude of it all. Like I've said, I'm not a tongue-talker but that's SO disrespectful and reminds me of the Corinthian church and what they were doing with communion. I don't think it's decent and I don't think it's in order.
I also understand I'm touching a pentecostal sacred cow here so I don't expect to get a standing ovation for this.
This subject has been discussed a lot on the forum, and many posters agree with you.
Hang around long enough and you'll see that there aren't many sacred cows here, and you'll find several who agree with most of your opinions.
Notof, I guess there's not much you can say when one feels like they know everything and that their experiences and what they've seen is somehow universal. So I guess there's not much more to say than that your experiences and your views do not necessarily a universal fact make. I attend a church that worships in a variety of ways including some of what many would call demonstrative or exhuberant. However, I am also thankful that we are a church that is spiritual enough, enlightened enough, and responsible enough to not manufacture it, push for it, or do it for "fun".
God Bless,
Oops, major typo. I meant....I've never seen music like this take place without........
Keeping with the spirit of humility, if you having nothing nice to say, there is no reason to say anything at all. If you feel that we were in error, pray that God moves in a light that is more pleasing to Him.
This is great advice. You've apparently changed your tune quite a bit since this earlier thread when my church was on your chopping block. Thank goodness we all continue to grow - myself included, of course.
Notof, I guess there's not much you can say when one feels like they know everything and that their experiences and what they've seen is somehow universal. So I guess there's not much more to say than that your experiences and your views do not necessarily a universal fact make. I attend a church that worships in a variety of ways including some of what many would call demonstrative or exhuberant. However, I am also thankful that we are a church that is spiritual enough, enlightened enough, and responsible enough to not manufacture it, push for it, or do it for "fun".
God Bless,
OK, now I read your entire post after I saw my typo.
Above bolded.....come on, Stew, I've always like the things you post. WE disagree here. That IS ok, isn't it? I'm expressing my opinions like a million other people on this forum. No need to throw that at me.
OK, now I read your entire post after I saw my typo.
Above bolded.....come on, Stew, I've always like the things you post. WE disagree here. That IS ok, isn't it? I'm expressing my opinions like a million other people on this forum. No need to throw that at me.
I'm just saying that in the context of this conversation, you are not leaving any room for the possiblity that your experiences, opinions, and perspective are not universally true.
I'm not saying that there are not churches who manufacture and are into false emotionalism or whatever. What I am saying is that it is reckless to assume that everytime you see people praise in this way in every church that it is not spiritual and is manufactured hype.
You are expressing your opinion, but you are also expressing the underlying premise that your opinion is definitive and universally accurate.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
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