Where has Grace and Love gone...

[Praxeas]

Can you guys elaborate in detail how your churches are void of love and grace?

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Can you guys elaborate in detail how your churches are void of love and grace?

I think that we were just busy working in church activities geared towards winning souls that we neglected relationships with one another.

I know that more then one person mentioned to me that they felt it was hard to make friends with others in church.

This was an experience from a long time ago, not an issue now.

I would like to ask you some questions Prax, just out of curiosity. If you don't wish to answer, I completely understand.

As I have gotten to know you on this forum, I understand that you attend a UPC Church. Yet your beliefs don't match what I know about the UPC. I'm referring to believing in what is called on this board the "one step" salvation, vs. believing that you need to Repent, be baptized in Jesus name, and receive the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking in tongues. Also, it seems that you don't believe in typical UPC holiness standards, i.e. uncut hair, dresses on women, ect. Your church doesn't seem anything like what I would identify as a UPC Church. I'm somewhat baffled by it.

Honestly, your church doesnt seem typically UPC at all to me.

[Truthseeker]

True fellowship is a rarity.

[Rudy]

I have found the best friendships tend to be outside of legalistic assemblies.

Legalism tends to kill off natural affection and spawns social impotence IMO. Example:----> Phariseeism.

There are Christian meet-ups every where if looking for fellowship.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

As of today and for the past several months I haven't been in a UPC church. I know that the mode of operation is such that much doesn't really change in the UPC as a whole or at least changes don't happen quickly. I had a conversation with some UPC friends of mine last night and they told me that there still isn't much grace and love in the movement. This doesn't shock me since there wasn't much when I was in it. So my question is where did the grace and love go? Was it really ever there? Have we been a part of a bait-and-switch through the years? I am not trying to start a bash session, really I am not. I am curious because I have tons of friends and family still in the movement and it worries me that there isn't much grace or love in the movement, but they abound in judgement. Am I the only one that is feeling this?

I don't know where I'd be if God did not answer prayers for me. Walking with Jesus is a very personal experience for me. Nobody has a monopoly on our Savior, I learned.

I was born again in a UPC Church that was very loving...or maybe it was the new and the love of Christ that I felt. It all fell apart when the church spilt over ...tithing and pastoring. Then the pastor committed adultery and that put everybody in a turmoil.

So I try to keep my eyes off people ... and what they say...what they do so that I am not side-tracked. It would be easy for me to be embittered by some of my UPC experiences, but I know that not all UPC members hurt people or put a microscope on other people's lives. Those who do are meddling in other people's lives. The bible speaks something about that subject.

I would only be hurting myself if I allowed what other people say to embed their words into my heart.

Above all...I must make it to heaven regardless of what anybody throws my way.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I think that we were just busy working in church activities geared towards winning souls that we neglected relationships with one another.

I know that more then one person mentioned to me that they felt it was hard to make friends with others in church.

This was an experience from a long time ago, not an issue now.

I would like to ask you some questions Prax, just out of curiosity. If you don't wish to answer, I completely understand.

As I have gotten to know you on this forum, I understand that you attend a UPC Church. Yet your beliefs don't match what I know about the UPC. I'm referring to believing in what is called on this board the "one step" salvation, vs. believing that you need to Repent, be baptized in Jesus name, and receive the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking in tongues. Also, it seems that you don't believe in typical UPC holiness standards, i.e. uncut hair, dresses on women, ect. Your church doesn't seem anything like what I would identify as a UPC Church. I'm somewhat baffled by it.

Honestly, your church doesnt seem typically UPC at all to me.

My views don't reflect my church, however our church is considered moderate/liberal by others

[Dagwood]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

My views don't reflect my church, however our church is considered moderate/liberal by others

I would concur the same regarding where I go to church -- UPC-affiliated, yet some view it as mod/lib.

Regarding friendliness and gifts of the Spirit, I've seen more of it displayed here than other places I've been...

[Jay]

I have been to churches that, compared to what I am used to, were more moderate. However, for the UPC they are doubtless fairly conservative. And they can be friendly. The church where my brother goes, is actually very friendly. I was made to be very welcome, and enjoyed it very much.

I would say a lot depends on the attitudes of the people in the church, as well as the attitudes of the those visiting. One has to accept the welcome of a church if they want to feel that welcoming attitude. I have seen people accuse churches of being unfriendly, but it was really that the person would never accept any of the hospitality of the people. They would not go out, would not go to functions, would not almost nothing with the congregation, and then claim the church was not friendly.

I say those doors swing both ways. Churches must be welcoming, but people must be willing to be welcomed.

[The Lemon]

I suspect that there are many saints in the local UPC churches who would be considered very liberal (In light of the Manual). But they have been doing church the UPC way for so long that they know what to expect and how to fit in at the right moments.

I would also suspect that many licensed ministers would also be considered liberal according to the manual and in fact are in violation of one or more AOF in the Affirmation Statement, and in fact should really not be licensed with the organization at all according to the manual.

This facade is one major reason relationships don't prosper as a whole, how can they when there is hypocrisy? People feel they have to put on the dog and pony show in front of Bro. and sis. so and so, but when church is over they are watching the NFL in their easy chair; even though they are not supposed to own a T.V.

The organization has so many awesome preachers and evangelists, and is dear to my heart, but until people can feel totally free to be who they are, mistakes, faults, and all, there will always be the double life and the dis-connect in many assemblies and amoung many ministers. We know how to run the business side of the church, but fail largely on the relationship side.

I have had so many issues with the hypocrisy that I have spoken at length with two pastors over this and both offered no solid answer. In fact one of them thinks it is o.k. to sign the affirmation Statement even if you are in violation. I don't know but it has never felt right to me.

My wife and I are so different from anybody on staff at our local church, i am surprised many times that they still except us...

[Aquila]

Interesting thoughts on Grace (Romans Verse-by-Verse William R. Newell):

A FEW WORDS ABOUT GRACE

I
The Nature of Grace
1. Grace is God acting freely, according to His own nature as Love; with no promises or
obligations to fulfil; and acting of course, righteously—in view of the cross.
2. Grace, therefore, is uncaused in the recipient: its cause lies wholly in the GIVER, in GOD.
3. Grace, also is sovereign. Not having debts to pay, or fulfilled conditions on man’s part to
wait for, it can act toward whom, and how, it pleases. It can, and does, often, place the worst
deservers in the highest favors.
4. Grace cannot act where there is either desert or ability: Grace does not help—it is absolute,
it does all.
5. There being no cause in the creature why Grace should be shown, the creature must be
brought off from trying to give cause to God for His Grace.
6. The discovery by the creature that he is truly the object of Divine grace, works the utmost
humility: for the receiver of grace is brought to know his own absolute unworthiness, and his
complete inability to attain worthiness: yet he finds himself blessed,—on another principle, outside
of himself!
7. Therefore, flesh has no place in the plan of Grace. This is the great reason why Grace is
hated by the proud natural mind of man. But for this very reason, the true believer rejoices! For he
knows that “in him, that is, in his flesh, is no good thing”; and yet he finds God glad to bless him,
just as he is!

II
The Place of Man under Grace
1. He has been accepted in Christ, who is his standing!
2. He is not “on probation.”
3. As to his life past, it does not exist before God: he died at the Cross, and Christ is his life.
4. Grace, once bestowed, is not withdrawn: for God knew all the human exigencies beforehand:
His action was independent of them, not dependent upon them.
5. The failure of devotion does not cause the withdrawal of bestowed grace (as it would under
law). For example: the man in I Cor. 5:1-5; and also those in 11:30-32, who did not “judge”
themselves, and so were “judged by the Lord,—that they might not be condemned with the world”!

III
The Proper Attitude of Man under Grace
1. To believe, and to consent to be loved while unworthy, is the great secret.
2. To refuse to make “resolutions” and “vows”; for that is to trust in the flesh.
3. To expect to be blessed, though realizing more and more lack of worth.
4. To testify of God’s goodness, at all times.
5. To be certain of God’s future favor; yet to be ever more tender in conscience toward Him.
6. To rely on God’s chastening hand as a mark of His kindness.
7. A man under grace, if like Paul, has no burdens regarding himself; but many about others.

IV
Things Which Gracious Souls Discover
1. To “hope to be better” is to fail to see yourself in Christ only.
2. To be disappointed with yourself, is to have believed in yourself.
3. To be discouraged is unbelief,—as to God’s purpose and plan of blessing for you.
4. To be proud, is to be blind! For we have no standing before God, in ourselves.
5. The lack of Divine blessing, therefore, comes from unbelief, and not from failure of devotion.
6. Real devotion to God arises, not from man’s will to show it; but from the discovery that
blessing has been received from God while we were yet unworthy and undevoted.
7. To preach devotion first, and blessing second, is to reverse God’s order, and preach law, not
grace. The Law made man’s blessing depend on devotion; Grace confers undeserved, unconditional
blessing: our devotion may follow, but does not always do so,—in proper measure.