The Scriptures Are Subjective

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by n david

They quoted David and the prophets. Most of the Apostle's messages were filled with references to the Psalms or prophets....which is in the Bible!

Amen, the Book of Romans is replete with OT references that Paul used to show the Jews that God had not abandoned Israel and he answers the hard questions about the relation between Judaism and Christianity, the authority of the scripture, and the role of the church. The Book of Romans seeks to ground the gospel in Israel's sacred texts. It an amazing book along with the Book of Hebrews.

[Dichotomy Girl]

Originally Posted by Reader

Those are pretty strong thoughts.

Yeah. I went through a very dark time years back. I never lost the belief that God existed, but for a long time I didn't think he was good. And I didn't know how to deal with that. And then I thought of that verse in Colossians that talks about Jesus being the Image of the invisible God. And I thought of Jesus being the ultimate revelation of God. So when I had "God is horrible/mean/capricious/cruel/arbitrary" thoughts, I would filter those through the words and actions of Jesus. And things attributed to God that seemed to not match Jesus' Character. Well, I kind of filed them off to the side.

Those actions that I mentioned that happened in the OT, they just seem completely out of character for Jesus.

Paul wrote that about male/female, etc. But there are those that discount whatever Paul taught.

Do you have difficulty believing God called a group of people to reveal himself through in the Old Testament? That he gave them a land that others were living in and that many of those people were killed?

Might I ask how you do decide how God is, since you disbelieve accounts in the Old Testament?

You are right, it was Paul saying it, but I think Jesus showed it by his actions, with the Samaritan woman, the woman with the issue of blood, the Centurion, etc.

I don't necessarily have problems believing that God called a group of people and set them apart. I don't have a problem believing that he gave them a land all for their own. I don't have a problem believing that they killed to get that land. But I do find it hard to believe that it was God that commanded it.

I read an article by Greg Boyd years back, that was the closest anyone ever came to giving an acceptable ex plantation. I tried to find it, and couldn't, but I found this one and found it very interesting:

http://reknew.org/2009/07/jesus-repu...nt-violence-2/

[votivesoul]

You know, there is more revealed about Jesus in the New Testament being the executor of God's wrath and vengeance than at first glance.

While we see the gentle (not soft) loving Savior willingly sacrificing Himself for the sins of the world, we also read verses like the following:

Luke 19:27,

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

This is a parable in which the Lord teaches that the Jewish people of Jerusalem, specifically the Sanhedrin and the Pharisees, were going to be destroyed. This happened in 70 AD, nearly forty years after the Lord ascended to heaven, in which the Roman empire starved out and nearly annihilated the entire city. Murder, cannibalism, and other unmentionable debaucheries took place within the walls during the siege. After the siege, the Romans crucified THOUSANDS.

This all happened why? Because Jerusalem didn't know the time of her royal visitation by Messiah Jesus.

Additionally, Paul writes in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10,

7 ...the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

It is the Lord Jesus of the New Testament (and not the God of the Old) that will avenge the Father with fire upon all those who don't know God and don't obey the Gospel centered around His Son's life.

In fact, we see that Christ's vengeance is so terrible, all who suffer it will experience "everlasting destruction".

Further, in Revelation 6 we read of the first 6 seals on the scroll being opened by none other than Jesus Christ. It is He, through the opening of the scrolls, that unleashes the following:

Four horsemen who have the power to "conquer", to wage "war" and take "peace" from the earth, utterly destroy the global economy, and finally, to kill 1/4 of the planet's population at the time (Jesus indirectly responsible for close to 2 billion deaths? What?).

And this isn't even all. At the opening of the sixth seal, the great day of the Lamb's wrath is unleashed on the world, as if the first four seals weren't bad enough.

And if one continues on through Revelation, one sees Jesus trampling underfoot as if in a wine-press the fierceness of God's wrath, until the blood of His enemies drench the skirt of His robes. We see Him waging the battle of Armageddon, in which there is so much death and destruction, we are given a gruesome image in which a sea of blood nearly six feet deep covers the valley just outside the city of Jerusalem. We also read of the Lord presiding over the smoke of the eternal torment in the lake which burns with fire all them who took the mark of the beast.

So what happened to the New Testament depiction of Christ as this all (and only merciful) lover and lowly friend to sinners?

Sorry, that is only half the picture. The rest of the story is the avenging Christ, who shall rule with a rod of iron and not spare His enemies until they are made His footstool, until He has thoroughly and utterly conquered the world in righteous indignation.

Only until we see and accept both sides of the equation can we get an accurate understanding of who and what the Lord Jesus, the Son and Incarnation of the God of the Old Testament, is.

[Lafon]

I am mindful of this.....

Romans 11:22 KJV

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell , severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off .

[Sean]

Aaron. It is 2 extremes that we see here. If you dont accept the love of Almighty God, you will get His wrath in return. Your point is very clear.

[votivesoul]

Romans 2:6-11,

6 [God] will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Are these verses subjective to one's own culturally (and etc.) understood interpretation?

I don't see how. They are clear (right, Sean?) and are pretty self-evident, straight-forward, without wiggle room.

The only subjectivity present is the kind brought into the Word (called eisogesis) rallied forth by a carnal mind that doesn't want to/refuses to believe what has been penned.

So many people, as Simon Peter warned, will wrest the words of Paul to their own destruction, rather than simply agreeing that what Paul has written is the commandment of the Lord.

[Sean]

I would like to share my perspective on death right here if I may...

We see death as some horrible injustice that God has permitted on the human race, but that is not at all how it should be viewed. It is just as much the will of God for us to die as it is to be born. I have a sister in law with stage 4 cancer that loves God and has been born again practically all her life. (she is 57). I try to reassure family that does not understand why God is so "unfair", that it is Gods will for ALL of us to die in the appointed time. If we dont understand that, we are not understanding the point of the purpose of the resurrection of Jesus. We were never meant to be here on earth forever, but this life is actually a "birthing room" for the afterlife. We must be looking forward to our eternal reward of putting off this wretched, sinful, fallen,failing body to redeem it for an uncorruptible one. I am actually excited about my new resurrected body. And trust me, we(some of us) will be trading it in sooner than we realize!

[Sean]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Romans 2:6-11,



Are these verses subjective to one's own culturally (and etc.) understood interpretation?

I don't see how. They are clear (right, Sean?) and are pretty self-evident, straight-forward, without wiggle room.

The only subjectivity present is the kind brought into the Word (called eisogesis) rallied forth by a carnal mind that doesn't want to/refuses to believe what has been penned.

So many people, as Simon Peter warned, will wrest the words of Paul to their own destruction, rather than simply agreeing that what Paul has written is the commandment of the Lord.

Romans 2:6-11
King James Version (KJV)
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.




We will die, whether we are good or evil. It is a homecoming for the righteous but a disaster for the wicked. This is the crystal clear truth for all to realize.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Sean

I would like to share my perspective on death right here if I may...

We see death as some horrible injustice that God has permitted on the human race, but that is not at all how it should be viewed. It is just as much the will of God for us to die as it is to be born. I have a sister in law with stage 4 cancer that loves God and has been born again practically all her life. (she is 57). I try to reassure family that does not understand why God is so "unfair", that it is Gods will for ALL of us to die in the appointed time. If we dont understand that, we are not understanding the point of the purpose of the resurrection of Jesus. We were never meant to be here on earth forever, but this life is actually a "birthing room" for the afterlife. We must be looking forward to our eternal reward of putting off this wretched, sinful, fallen,failing body to redeem it for an uncorruptible one. I am actually excited about my new resurrected body. And trust me, we(some of us) will be trading it in sooner than we realize!

For some, the "sting of death is sin". The grave has complete mastery over them, and as such, the idea of lights out is terrifying to the max.

For others, death is swallowed up in the victory of "our Lord Jesus Christ". It holds no sting. For them, to die is gain.

[Carl]

Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl

Yeah. I went through a very dark time years back. I never lost the belief that God existed, but for a long time I didn't think he was good. And I didn't know how to deal with that. And then I thought of that verse in Colossians that talks about Jesus being the Image of the invisible God. And I thought of Jesus being the ultimate revelation of God. So when I had "God is horrible/mean/capricious/cruel/arbitrary" thoughts, I would filter those through the words and actions of Jesus. And things attributed to God that seemed to not match Jesus' Character. Well, I kind of filed them off to the side.

Those actions that I mentioned that happened in the OT, they just seem completely out of character for Jesus.

You are right, it was Paul saying it, but I think Jesus showed it by his actions, with the Samaritan woman, the woman with the issue of blood, the Centurion, etc.

I don't necessarily have problems believing that God called a group of people and set them apart. I don't have a problem believing that he gave them a land all for their own. I don't have a problem believing that they killed to get that land. But I do find it hard to believe that it was God that commanded it.

I read an article by Greg Boyd years back, that was the closest anyone ever came to giving an acceptable ex plantation. I tried to find it, and couldn't, but I found this one and found it very interesting:

http://reknew.org/2009/07/jesus-repu...nt-violence-2/

I read Greg Boyd's book "Is God To Blame?" recently. Very good! It really helps to look at life through Jesus.